Who Is Most Likely to Cheat?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Infidelity ain't what it used to be. Like it or not, the Internet has opened a whole new frontier ripe for cheating. Whether you faced this in your own relationship or not, you need to listen to today's episode with cyber infidelity expert Doctor Peter Canaris. Our conversation was so good that I had to break it up into two episodes. In part one, we will discuss statistics around infidelity and cyber infidelity, so you'll know who is most likely to cheat and why. And be sure to come back for part two when we dive into infidelity recovery and how to reestablish trust. But first, let's get to know our guest. Doctor Peter Canaris is a licensed psychologist and an ASEC certified diplomat of sex therapy. He is a distinguished fellow of the New York State Psychological association. He has been the featured guest on many live interviews and call and television programs where he has discussed a variety of topics on relationships and sexuality. Doctor Kanaerys has developed the collaborative model for the couples treatment of infidelity and cyber infidelity. Let's get started. [00:01:03] Speaker B: Doctor Peter Canaris, welcome to the show. [00:01:06] Speaker C: Thank you, Emily. Great to be here. [00:01:08] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm so excited for our discussion today. It's a tough topic, though. I just want people to be forewarned. We are going to be chatting all about infidelity, which I think if you look at the statistics, which we will talk a little bit about today, happens a bit more often than we'd probably like to admit, especially when we factor in cyber infidelity, which is your expertise. So before we get into all of it, I would love to hear a little bit more about you, your background and how cyber infidelity became a focus of your clinical work. [00:01:42] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I've. I'm a psychologist and sex therapist, and, you know, for many years, I've been dealing with issues that couples face, often sexual issues, but relational issues of all kinds of. And there really has been a preponderance of cases that I've encountered where the presenting issue or an issue that emerges during the course of treatment is one of infidelity. I began to see that of the various issues that couples face, I would really say that was the most common. It was the predominant kind of issue. So I really began to study it and develop my own approach to dealing with the issue of infidelity. [00:02:27] Speaker B: Yeah, I see it all the time, too. And, you know, just for people listening, not to scare folks, but it can happen to the couple who you least expect. I mean, I have had countless couples come through my doors. And you would never imagine looking at them from the outside or, you know, they would say things along the lines of, you know, my social circle just would never guess that this is something that we were going through. So it can happen to the best of us. It can happen to people you. You wouldn't expect. And I'm curious a little bit to hear your thoughts on that. [00:02:58] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, to your point, Emily, it really is pervasive, and it's not limited by, you know, age range or a couple in their twenties. I've encountered it as commonly of couples in their sixties and seventies as I have of beginning relationships in marriages or various partnerships. It really is a pervasive issue that we encounter as a psychologist, sex therapist, definitely. [00:03:26] Speaker B: So you started studying it. You created your own approach to treating it. So before we talk about that specifically, let's define infidelity and talk about how that's different or related to cyber infidelity. [00:03:40] Speaker C: Okay. Yeah, very important question. And sometimes there's some confusion about that, so I'm glad we're talking about it. Despite my surprisingly youthful appearance, I'm actually an old, all right. And I've been in practice the last two decades of the 20th century. I sometimes joke and say I have a two century practice about two decades in the 20th century, and now just about the first quarter of the 21st century. I divide it that way because it's kind of when infidelity changed in the last century, we saw a good old fashioned infidelity, which typically would occur. People would meet at work, at the water cooler. People would meet at the gym. People would actually go out to a bar and meet someone. So, in other words, it took greater agency and intention to be unfaithful, to get involved outside of the primary relationship in the 21st century. And in particular, you know, certainly with the development of the Internet, broadband, and then social media. And if I had to pick the one technological development that was key, I would say it's the smartphone. With development, the smartphone, because I'll refer to the smartphone very often as the 11th digit, because quite literally, we got the thing on our hands all the time. It's on our body somewhere in a pocket. It's close by. And our lives really revolve around entering that portal for so many reasons and so many of the things that we do. And the change in infidelity to cyber infidelity, I would say, is similar to an analogy I'll often use would be how bullying has changed from the last century to this. Bullying. A kid had to go to school, might have gotten picked on in the cafeteria or beaten up in the schoolyard. Now kids are affected in their own homes. They're bullied in their bedrooms by social media and other mechanisms of our screens. So it's changed, and it's become far more aggressive. The next click, we enter the rabbit hole that leads us to a place that normally we had no intention of being, and we kind of found ourselves there and maybe just made an unfortunate decision, that particular point. Another aspect of the change is the discovery. Okay. Because very often what I encounter these days is there is a disaffected upset partner who has made an unfortunate sort of cell phone discovery of a text or a sex or some kind of communication that is extra relational. And now the explosion goes off within the relationship. Going back to the question, I believe that all infidelity today can be considered cyber infidelity, whether it gets going through the Internet or is maintained by a cell phone and text communication. Extra relational relationship. [00:06:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:06:51] Speaker C: Is about 99 out of 100 times has that involvement. So very, very rarely now do I think we encounter old style infidelity. It usually now could be considered, in my opinion, always cyber infidelity. [00:07:06] Speaker B: And is part of the demarcation for you when you think of, quote, unquote, old school infidelity, the in person sexual contact versus the virtual sexual contact that's happening in cyber infidelity. [00:07:19] Speaker C: Yeah. I think what it's done is it has broadened what is considered infidelity and that sort of opportunity. And it's very interesting because in my experience, and I think a lot of the data shows this as well, I find the upset of the partner. Okay. And the disruption to the primary relationship to be largely indistinguishable, whether or not there's been a face to face meeting and person sexual contact, or whether it has remained purely electronic. [00:07:53] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:54] Speaker C: And people have not actually met physics, but have maintained some sort of affair like relationship. It could involve sexting, it could involve toys that are remote, and it could simply involve conversation that is of an intimate nature or a sharing of information that the partner believes, hey, that's part of our marriage, or that's part of our relationship. And now you're going outside and developing that level of an intimacy with this other person. [00:08:26] Speaker B: Right. [00:08:26] Speaker C: And it blows up the same whether, again, whether there's been actual face to face physical contact or not. [00:08:34] Speaker B: Yeah, I get that. And I believe it. You know, in my years working with infidelity, a lot of times what people say, and I'm sure this is the case for you, it's. Yes, there is hurt and pain because of the sexual contact, but so much more of the pain comes from the secret keeping. [00:08:51] Speaker C: Yes. [00:08:51] Speaker B: And the betrayal because of the secret keeping. And I. This sense of, like, I don't know who you are anymore. I can't trust myself anymore. And that pain can come about because there was actual physical contact or it was just virtual contact. At the end of the day, a secret is a secret. [00:09:07] Speaker C: Yes. You're making some important points. That element of the partner who's been affected by the infidelity, there's so many different aspects that are relevant and how they're affected. If I had to boil it down to what's the most profound, it is the loss of reality. I thought I had a handle on my world, how it worked, my relationship, what I could expect. And now it's blown up in such a way where, of course, I can't trust you anymore, but I can't trust myself, my own judgment and my sense of that reality, of what I thought was real for me. And that's so terribly upsetting. [00:09:48] Speaker B: Oh, traumatizing. So traumatizing. Yeah. Yeah. And that's where I think the real hard therapeutic work comes in and is in helping that person, the betrayed partner, regain their sense of reality and trust for themselves. [00:10:02] Speaker A: Are you struggling with emotional or physical intimacy? I have good news. I am now offering an unbeatable deal for my private six week online workshop. When you purchase my new book, Anatomy of Desire, you get the workshop for free. [00:10:17] Speaker B: That's right. [00:10:18] Speaker A: It's on the house. With qualified book purchases, certain rules do apply, but check out emilyjamia.com workshop for all the details. [00:10:26] Speaker B: And you know, another thing that comes to mind as I'm thinking about the differences between. I'm just going to keep using the phrase old school infidelity versus cyber infidelity is, you know, with old school infidelity, a lot of times it was just the lipstick on the collar. Maybe you found a phone number or a note in someone's pocket. With cyber infidelity, sometimes there is a whole trail of explicit pictures, text messages, images that can be really hard, if not impossible, to get out of your head. And that can add another element, I think, of trauma response that we didn't see, you know, 30, 40 years ago. [00:11:05] Speaker C: Absolutely. I can't tell you how common it is in cases that I've treated, you know, where the injured partner. Okay, the wounded partner sends me screenshot texts of all kinds of things that have occurred between their spouse and the outside party. It is, again, this unreality and this utter shock that really just floors the person and creates a real trauma response? [00:11:36] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Would you say that with the Internet and social media and smartphones, that on the one hand, it's easier to cheat than ever before, but on the other hand, are people getting caught more than ever before because of this trail that we're talking about? I mean, in my office, probably every other case that's discovered through, like, the kid's iPad because they didn't realize the Apple ID was synced. I mean, what are you seeing in terms of how. How frequently this is coming out today versus 30, 40 years ago? [00:12:09] Speaker C: I don't have data on it, but anecdotally. Anecdotally, my clinical experiences, I think so are for the reasons that you are suggesting, including, as you point out, very often the discovery comes by one of the children, and the children now has seen or, you know, used dad's iPhone or in some way runs across information that, okay, something untold is going on here, and that becomes what starts the process. Going to your point, these are things that in old school, infidelity typically would not occur. [00:12:48] Speaker A: Right. [00:12:48] Speaker C: Okay. So it's almost like, you know, what? If you're cheating, you better plan on. It's a matter of time before discovery. You know, I think some people feel that maybe they can, you know, never be discovered, but I find that in almost inevitably, there is that point of discovery, and now the bomb goes off. [00:13:11] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I agree. It's a matter of time. I think people get kind of sloppy. The more comfortable they get. They think they've gotten away with it. They start. They. Or rather, they stop covering their tracks. And then, like you said, either. And then you're not just treating the trauma within the couple, you're. It's become a huge family issue if a kid gets involved because they're the ones that have discovered it, and then you're treating a totally traumatized family. [00:13:35] Speaker C: Yes. You know, and that. It's really what led me, I think so many. So many therapists confronted in this situation really feel stuck on. All right, what? This is a mess. And what do you do? You know, can this relationship be saved? How do you go about it? There's so much shattered trust, confidence. Both the person that cheated and the person that was cheated on each goes through their versions of trauma. [00:14:04] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:14:05] Speaker C: Very often, the person that's cheated, you know, usually is feeling a lot of shame, a lot of guilt. Sometimes there's, you know, initial denial and defensiveness, but invariably, they wind up feeling terrible for what's happened, what's done. And as we said, the person that was cheated on again is trying to put reality back together and goes through a roller coaster of emotion, rage, reactions, different instability, depression, periods of anxiety. The initial phase is sort of like, okay, can we put out the fire enough to be able to begin a reconstruction? [00:14:45] Speaker B: Let's talk a little bit of infidelity statistics and numbers. The last I checked, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, men were cheating about 20% to 25% of the time in married relationships, and women about ten to 15% of the time in married relationships. My understanding, though, is that that was really only accounting for in person sexual affairs. And I'm curious if you have any data on the incidence of cyber infidelity and how that is, you know, the same or different across genders. [00:15:23] Speaker C: It's interesting because one of the interesting things that I found was how phone check comes into play. And you will find a majority of people will feel that checking their partner's social media, checking their phone secretly, is behaviors that they disapprove of. Yet high percentages of people that report disapproving of the behavior still engage in the behavior. So it's not that, you know, gee, I think this is terrible. I would never do it. It should never happen. Yeah, I think it's terrible, but I'm going to do it. [00:16:00] Speaker B: Yeah, I get that. [00:16:02] Speaker C: I get it because of that anxiety. And again, the phone is the game changer. It is entirely game changer. Connected, of course, to social media and that kind of involvement that has made all the difference in the world. Because historically, most treatments sort of look at that as sort of incidental. It just happens to be. That's the form. But the issues driving this are unrelated to all of that. Those issues that are driving it. I talk about the three legged stool. Most treatments will approach it with two legs. One is develop an understanding of, all right, what's up with the individual that led to this behavior? What are the personal issues, perhaps, that need to be addressed? The second leg tends to be, all right, what are the issues with the couple, between the couple, dynamically, of communication, this, that, and the other thing that are problematic, that may have contributed sexually, perhaps, to this problem. Those two legs are relevant, but unless you deal with the third leg, which is the recognition of the threat of technology and developing ideas on how a couple can successfully manage that, it's been my experience that if you look at them, aside from what's happened, basically solid couples, you know, the psychology of each person is. There's nothing so pathological or so the couple themselves are basically a good couple and they get along fairly well and they work together well. And it still happens. It still happens. Why? Largely because of the technology? [00:17:46] Speaker B: Yeah, because the opportunity. Because the opportunity is there. I mean, my understanding of infidelity is it's largely motivated because the opportunity presents itself. And we see this historically with old school infidelity. Maybe a salesperson is traveling at a conference and one thing leads to another because they meet someone and they start flirting. But then the opportunity is always there in our back pocket. Now that we have our cell phones, absolutely. [00:18:13] Speaker C: It poses a very real risk and threat. And it's very interesting because now we're starting to see concerns with our screens. It's being reported. And the concern is where? Well, our children. The effect that the screens are having on our children. We're looking at that. It's Vivek Murphy, the surgeon general of the United States put out report about the concerns of harms of social media and the screens on kids. Very valid. Congress is starting to look at these things. Okay, we're getting a little bit of awareness and concern of. Okay, what, what about the effect on adults? You know, we're starting to think a little bit about that. Maybe. Maybe how it's affected dating. We think a little bit about that. But established relationships and couples, we don't think about that to this point. It really hasn't been considered. It hasn't been investigated with any degree of concern that we've had in the others. And I think I'm hoping that that's coming next because couples need to be aware of. Okay, we need to communicate effectively and work together on managing the kids, on paying the bills, paying the mortgage. How we gonna, how are we dealing with our respective families of origin? We talk about all of that. We don't talk about how we use our devices and how we use our screens and the effects that it has on us. And we got to start those conversations. That has to be part of it as well. [00:19:44] Speaker B: You're absolutely right. I think that doesn't come into the conversation enough as it relates to determining your relationship values. Because at the end of the day, yes, our screens and our phone usage is a huge part of our life. I mean, I get a notification from Apple every week about what my average screen time was per day. And I'm always shocked, you know? And so, yeah, it's where we spend a lot of time, but it's not something a lot of couples spend time discussing to see what value system, what set of boundaries, what parameters they can put around it so that it doesn't destruct the relationship. Doctor Canaris, we are just scratching the surface of your treatment model, and I already know I have a lot of questions about it. [00:20:25] Speaker A: So let's hit the pause button right there because this is going to be a two parter. Doctor Canaris, thank you so much for. [00:20:32] Speaker B: Joining me so far. [00:20:33] Speaker A: I cannot wait to pick up in part two. [00:20:36] Speaker D: Thanks again for listening to love and libido with me, your host, Doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and drop me a five star review. Positive ratings help keep the show going. As much as we can learn from experts, nothing makes us feel more connected than hearing from each other. If you have a question about your love life, visit loveandlabedo.com and I'll answer it on an upcoming episode. And don't forget to get your copy of my new book, Anatomy of Desire, five secrets to create connection and cultivate Passion, which is currently available for pre order. Visit emilyjamia.com to try my online workshops and read my latest blogs. Subscribers to my podcast can use code half off for all my online learning material. Finally, you can follow me across all the social media channels for daily sex and relationship tips at Dr. Emily Jamia that's Dr. Emily Jamia. Thank you so much for tuning in.