Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The dreaded relationship argument. It's inevitable.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: You feel tension building only to explode.
[00:00:07] Speaker A: On your partner saying things you don't mean and damaging the relationship as a result.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: But what exactly is happening in the.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Body during an argument? And what can you do to hack the nervous system so that you and your partner can learn to fight bear? That's the topic of today's episode. I'm joined by Deborah Fox, a clinical social worker with over 35 years of experience in private practice in Washington, DC. She is a certified imago relationship therapist and a certified sex therapist, providing individual couples and group psychotherapy as well as clinical consultation. Deborah lectures on the integration of mind body strategies into couples therapy, sex therapy, and the treatment of sexual trauma. She also conducts small group seminars and consultation groups. Her most recent publication is the integration of somatic based strategies into couples therapy. Without further ado, let's dive in.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Deborah, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you with me today.
[00:01:10] Speaker C: Oh, it's my pleasure.
[00:01:12] Speaker B: And for everyone listening, I just have to tell you that Debra is a very gracious person because I messed up the schedule not once, but twice. And she was so patient and forgiving, which just makes me that much more excited to talk to her because she is, is a gem of a human. So, Debra, thank you again.
[00:01:33] Speaker C: You are so welcome.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: So I am really looking forward to today's conversation because despite having a podcast about love and sex, I don't know that I've really done an episode that has focused solely on the topic of arguments and how to fight fair. And it's an important one because arguments are inherent, really, in any kind of relationship, there's going to be conflict.
I think how we approach and handle the conflict can make or break our relationship. And absolutely, we are going to unpack everything today. So before we get into it, tell folks a little bit more about you and how you got into the field and what made you interested in this topic specifically.
[00:02:20] Speaker C: Sure. So I've been a couples therapist forever. I actually my first foray into the world of couples, Washington as a sex therapist, right out of the gate as a newbie minted therapist. And then over time, I got, couples are hard to work with because there's so much going on. Two people who really are hurting and want more from their partners. And then I was exposed to imago relationship therapy, which was really like a breath of fresh air because it was so powerful in terms of really increasing understanding with people. So I've been doing that for a really long time, but then studying trauma and seeing so many people with trauma, and there are only. There's only so much available cognitively to us. You know, our bodies hold a lot of information just in sensation. You know, like, if you were hit by a red truck when you were five and you're now 35, and you're standing on a street corner, and a red truck goes by and you're not thinking anything of it, but your body flinches, you know, that's the body holding information.
And so it just became so apparent to me that there was more. And as my career goes on, it's always exciting to learn new things. And unpacking arguments are really so much about understanding nervous system response as well as regulation, in terms of learning something about it, about what's going on, totally.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: Because it's our nervous system that gets activated when we feel confronted or we're faced with a conflict. And, you know, the analogy I always give, I didn't come up with it, but I can't remember who did, is when we're flooded with these stress hormones, when we're in that sympathetic state, it's almost like the prefrontal cortex part of the brain gets bypassed and the information, which means for people listening. The prefrontal cortex is the part of the brain that's involved in higher order thinking, decision making, planning. And when that part of the brain gets bypassed, we are responding and reacting with emotion alone.
[00:04:36] Speaker C: Yeah. What you're saying has been verified now that we have functional mris that scientists can actually see. When there's a lot of emotional reactivity going on, those logical centers of the brain have very low activity. We really can't think straight. That's a fact. When we're upset, like we not just a person, literally.
[00:04:56] Speaker B: Yeah, literally can't think straight. That's kind of a relief to know that it's not totally our fault.
[00:05:04] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:05:05] Speaker B: So many couples find that they lose sight of what they're really arguing about in the first place. Why do you think this happens?
[00:05:13] Speaker C: I think what's going on is that we have feelings that we're not comfortable feeling. They might be feeling inadequate, they might be feeling unimportant, they might be feeling worthless. They might be feeling judged. And these feelings are really uncomfortable to feel, but they get touched in something that their partner is saying or a look on their face or something. And because we're not comfortable feeling some of these feelings, we quickly sort of, in some way shut them off. And we might shut them off by kind of freezing and shutting down or withdrawing. We might shut them off by escalating you know, and sort of, you know, them spiting words, that kind of expression, you know, and start and starting to an argument. And that response is so successful in one sense because it really protects us from feeling feelings that we just avoid at all costs. So that's why we lose the. Lose a sense of what? Why are we really arguing about where you put the dish towel, you know?
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Because it's like the content of the argument is really lost in the emotional experience of it. Sounds like what you're describing.
[00:06:34] Speaker C: Exactly.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: So what can couples do? What helps couples do you think, in that moment to turn towards some of those uncomfortable emotions that they're experiencing and learn to mitigate them a little bit so that they can have more constructive conversations around conflict?
[00:06:50] Speaker C: This is huge in terms of importance and really challenging because in that moment, they're not going to figure it out. Their nervous system is really in charge at that point. So the first thing we have to do is sort of get back into some settled state. So the best thing to do is to call a timeout. You know, have some safe word. You know, it could be blueberries. It could be the classic timeout signal. Yeah, anything to just stop the damage, because that's when the hurtful things are said, and that's what people really walk away from that interaction, just kind of focusing on. So you have to stop the argument and you have to agree ahead of time. If somebody calls a timeout, we just respect that because it's so. It's so tempting to say, but this one last thing, you know, this will convince you and that that's a hard part. And then we have to sort of walk away, you know, so you don't engage with each other in some way. And that most, if you're really charged up, like really irritated or angry, the best thing you can do is go for a run, go for a walk. If you don't have time to do that, do jumping jacks, you know, something to literally address the physiology. Because when we're charged up, we aren't even breathing right anymore. We're taking way more inhale than we're taking exhale. And so it's almost like we're continuing the loop of feeling, you know, agitated and charged up just physiologically. So doing something physical can really help.
[00:08:29] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that advice. So, number one, you can't underestimate the importance of a timeout because we need to give ourselves that time and space to cool down, get some of that parasympathetic activity, kick back on. So that we're not fully engaged in fight or flight. But I love your recommendation to get out and move the body in some way, because that energy needs somewhere to go. You know, you sometimes hear people saying, like, I'm just going to go for a drive. And I don't really like recommending that because then you're getting on the road all fired up, which could potentially be unsafe, safe, and you're not really doing much to reset the body physiologically, or people will say, I'm going to go have a drink. Well, then you're adding alcohol, which is going to further reduce your inhibitions and probably make it more likely that you're going to say something that you regret. Um, but I think it's great advice to get out, go for a walk, do some jumping jacks, punch your pillow, you know, go to the other room and scream into your pillow, like, anything you can do somatically to move that energy can do wonders, I think, to help reset the nervous system.
[00:09:37] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And then you have a chance, and I think the first thing we have a chance to do is really two things. One is to reflect. And this is the challenging part. It's because you have to get past perhaps the painful things that were said or the judgments that were made, and you have to go back and back and back to the very first seconds or even before this argument kind of happened. I remember a couple who was arguing something about how to cut the chicken for dinner, and we sort of went through this process, and one of the partners was really mad at the other had nothing to do with dinner or cutting the chicken. They were so unhappy that their partner was working so many hours in recent weeks. That's what this was all about. But we don't necessarily think to do that is to go back and back and back even before. How are you feeling? Or what was the very first feeling you felt? We'll honestly say not everybody can come up with it. They might come up with one because it's so easy to come up. Well, I was really frustrated. You know, that's like, that's the kind of the top layer. If you think of feelings having layers, but if you can get to one of those more vulnerable feelings on importance or feeling misunderstood as a big one or feeling judged. So if you can identify that, you get five gold stars.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:11:02] Speaker C: Because that's hard work.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's where a lot of couples struggle, because they kind of lack the emotional acumen to even identify what feelings are getting triggered because they're so lost in them, like I said earlier, and, you know, to your point that it's not about cutting the chicken, you know, when I'm working with a couple, I'll give them the opportunity to, like, reenact one argument just so that I can see what dynamics are at play. But really what we couples therapists are paying attention to is not the content of the argument, it's the process of the argument. So I'd love to hear from you what are some common patterns that people listening can start to pay attention to, to see what loop they may get, they may be falling into in their own argument style?
[00:11:50] Speaker C: Well, certainly a pattern. If you have two people who tend to get irritated, angry, you know, you're going to have a lot of talking over. And so it's one thing really to really observe right away. If you're not, if nobody's listening and you're both talking, that is not going to end well. Yeah, and then you have some styles where one person is really the one who wants to keep pursuing and the other one is like saying less and less and less. They're kind of shutting down, and that's their way of sort of getting away from what's really comfortable. And they might be feeling helpless at that point to really have any agency, you know, in that dynamic. Those are the two most common that, that I see. And I think anytime you feel like you're not being heard or you're not listening anymore, which is a harder one to identify. Right. Because we're mostly concerned with what we're not doing, what we're not getting in that way.
[00:12:56] Speaker B: Exactly. And, you know, when it comes to couples who reach the point of yelling and screaming, what I like to remind people is that for the most part, we don't like to yell and scream at each other. Usually things get to that point because you feel like you've tried to communicate your point in softer, more appropriate tones, maybe several times, but for whatever reason, your partner hasn't heard what you've had to say or for whatever reason, the information just isn't landing for them. So what are some skills couples can have to, as much as possible, prevent arguments from escalating to that point?
[00:13:32] Speaker C: Well, the biggest skill we need at any way along this continuum is listening. We're just not good listeners, you know, and especially when there's something powerful, you know, going on is, you know, we think of communication as talking, but frankly, the more important part of any communication is listening. So I think that the more any part of a couple is listening and letting their partner know that they've been heard, really, about anything, about their day or about their concern or anything. That's a huge one. And of course, knowing what makes your partner feel loved and paying attention to that, knowing more about what's important to your partner, what's their moral compass, even if it might be a little different than yours. And supporting that understanding that not arguing with it like you shouldn't feel that way is probably one of the worst things we can say to our partners.
[00:14:36] Speaker B: Partners feelings.
[00:14:38] Speaker C: Exactly. Because we're different people. And, you know, learning that you can be different and still valuable and your partner can be different and still valuable and have their point of view, that's legit. That's a huge problem. It's a huge source of friction.
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[00:15:20] Speaker B: I'm just gonna repeat back something you said because it is truly such a golden nugget of information, and that is that communication is only half comprised of talking. The other half is listening. I mean, I just want everyone to let that sink in for a minute.
[00:15:37] Speaker A: Because you're so right.
[00:15:38] Speaker B: When we think about communication, we are thinking about what message we're trying to get across and completely ignoring, building any skill set about how to receive information. I think that's a piece that's really left out of communication skills training.
[00:15:53] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And by the way, who gets communications skills training, right?
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:16:00] Speaker C: It's sorely missing.
[00:16:01] Speaker B: Right? You can always tell when someone's been to therapy if they're referring to their communication skills handoff that they received.
[00:16:07] Speaker C: Where is that high school course on.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: Communication, emotional intelligence, and relational intelligence? I know everybody needs that class. One piece of advice I give to my couples as well is to schedule weekly check ins so that you're both coming together at a time where hopefully you're feeling relaxed and prepared to have a conversation. I like to start with affirmations before getting into any problems or requests for change. But the good thing about that is, number one, you can reflect back on the last week on things that maybe you did feel triggered or upset by, but you've given yourself a little bit of time to process it, because if you're doing a regular check in, hopefully you're not having to address everything right there in the moment. And you can then decide whether it's an argument that is worth having a conversation about. Maybe it's just a tiff and you let it go versus something that needs to be addressed. But the good thing about scheduling a couple's check in, really, is that you're both coming there prepared to have the conversation. You're hopefully regulated. You're not taken off guard, which is going to set you up to feel defensive or shut down. And so I find really that setting that time aside can do wonders at helping couples get to a place where the arguments are not escalating. What about revisiting an argument? What is your advice there? Because a lot of people will, you know, get it out of their system and then sweep it all under the rug and then find that maybe a few weeks or months down the line, they're having the same argument. So how can couples revisit an argument and process it so that they maybe don't slip back into it again? Or should they? When is it better to let it go?
[00:17:45] Speaker C: I think repairing is really essential. You know, sometimes people have something and it happened ten years ago and it's still present, you know, so repairing things that are significant is really important. And I think the first step is one the reflecting that I talked about before, and then think of what you did to contribute to the argument part. You know, think of what is it that you have to apologize for? Even if you think you're only 2% responsible, apologize for your 2%, because that goes such a long way in terms of your partner being willing to reengage with you. And hopefully they'll be willing, you know, to say, well, you know, I'm sorry, I blah, blah, blah. And then what I always suggest is when you're ready to revisit it and that one person agrees, they're going to talk, and the other person agrees, they're going to listen. And they set a timer for five minutes, unless they're, they can go for longer than five minutes because they have a lot of practice under their belts.
And I learned this. I used to say 20 minutes. And then I realized two things. My couples told me, no, we can't. I get it too long. And if you're really talking to the point you can do it in five minutes, and then the other person either is going to mirror along the way, reflect, tell them what they've heard, or at least as a summary at the end of that period of time, and then they're done for that moment and they wait some period of time because normally there's some feelings that might, you know, be stirred up, and then they're kind of at risk for re arguing the case. And then they come back 20 minutes later or 24 hours later and the other person has their five minutes. And I usually find that at the end of those two periods, there is so much more that is understood, that might be all they need is to be understood, or if they still have something to navigate, negotiate. They're in such a better position to be able to do that.
[00:19:56] Speaker B: I love that approach. I mean, you're really generous with your five minutes. I usually make my couples mirror every, like, few sentences, but I think what's so great about this method is that there's a good night's sleep, hopefully, in between one person speaking and the other person speaking. I think we don't realize how much time we need to process information that is emotionally charged because how much it activates the nervous system, which I am a big fan of. Going to bed angry if you have to. I do not subscribe to the idea that you have to work things out before going to bed. I'm like, oh, my gosh, by all means.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: Especially when you're exhausted.
[00:20:36] Speaker B: Sleep on it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And just giving our bodies time to rest and relax and recharge and regroup gives the brain time to do what it needs to do in terms of making some of those neural connections and categorizing the information in a way that you can then hopefully communicate back to your partner in a way that isn't so emotionally charged.
Like I said before, conflict is inherent in any relationship. I always tell my couples that, of course it is. You know, the goal should not be that you never have a fight or don't have arguments from time to time. I mean, I'm a couples therapist. I fight with. With my husband. It's normal, you know, but you get to the point where the arguments aren't happening too frequently, that they're not too intense. And the third thing, that you're able to recover from them.
[00:21:26] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:21:27] Speaker B: And repair.
[00:21:27] Speaker C: Yeah, and repair. And understand them, you know?
[00:21:30] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:21:31] Speaker C: And all that is a knowing of yourself and your partner better.
[00:21:35] Speaker B: We were talking a lot about arguments, but what's your advice for people who are conflict avoidant?
[00:21:40] Speaker C: So really challenging. I think it's the same process, but the more safety they learn in being able to talk and be heard. Like in my five minute segments, you know, that over time, if their partner really can tune into them and what I say to the person who's listening is you really want to be listening with curiosity. What is it like inside their body, their brain, their experience? What am I going to learn as a result of listening? So if we can find that curiosity, we're really going to make our partner feel way more understood. And the more that happens, the safety builds and that conflict avoidant person can feel safer. Now, it doesn't happen overnight, but it can happen.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: And I think that's the key word is safety. What I always ask the person who's maybe a little more conflict comfortable, shall we say, is what are you doing to make your partner feel safe enough to open up to you? Because chances are the reason they are conflict avoidant is because it wasn't safe for them to confront conflict growing up. And so you have to really ask yourself what you're doing to create a sense of safety and trust so that they feel like they can open up and be vulnerable.
[00:23:04] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:23:05] Speaker B: Well, Deborah, this was such a great conversation. Thank you for joining me. And double thanks again for your graciousness.
[00:23:12] Speaker C: I've enjoyed it too. So hopefully, you know, somebody will listen and this will be helpful to them.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Yeah, no, I know for sure it's going to help a lot of people out. Deborah, where can people find out more about you?
[00:23:23] Speaker C: Probably my website, debfox.com.
[00:23:26] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, I will be sure to link it in the show notes. Again, gratitude. Thank you for joining me and I hope our paths cross again soon.
[00:23:34] Speaker C: Wonderful. Me as well. Take care.
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Thanks again for listening to love and libido with me, your host, doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and drop me a five star review. Positive ratings help keep the show going as much as we can learn from experts. Nothing makes us feel more connected than hearing from each other. If you have a question about your love life, visit loveandlabedo.com and I'll answer it on an upcoming episode. And don't forget to get your copy of my new book, Anatomy of five Secrets to create connection and cultivate Passion, which is currently available for pre order. Visit emilyjamia.com to try my online workshops and read my latest blogs. Subscribers to my podcast can use code half off for all my online learning material. Finally, you can follow me across all the social media channels for daily sex and relationship tips at drmilyjamia. That's drmilyjamia. Thank you so much for tuning in.
