Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: It can be hard to know when you should accept the less desirable traits of your partner versus when you should push for growth and change. It can be difficult to discern whether you're relating to an older iteration of your partner versus the most recently updated version of them. How do you know when your relationship might be falling into the trap of rigidity or chaos? That's the theme of today's episode. I'm joined by Dr. Corey Allen, a husband, father, author, speaker, and marriage and family therapist. He holds a PhD in family therapy. And he and his wife Pam host a weekly podcast called Sexy Marriage Radio where they help frame conversations and actions that help couples create a marriage fully alive.
[00:00:46] Speaker B: Without further ado, let's dive in.
Dr. Corey Allen, welcome to the show.
[00:00:53] Speaker C: It's so good to see you. I know we just spent some time together recording for Sexy Marriage Radio, but it's so great to now return the favor.
[00:01:00] Speaker B: I love it and I love doing these swaps because you just get to have really long, meaningful conversations with people, which I think enhances both of our podcasts because you feel, yes, indeed, to know each other. So I. I think it's great and I'm so happy to have you on my show now.
[00:01:17] Speaker C: Well, this will be fun.
[00:01:18] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. So, Dr. Corey, something we both share is the importance of happiness in long term relationships. I think sometimes we come at it from different angles. I know that you are a bit more faith based than I am, you know, but I think that still, by and large, a lot of people are wanting to find ways to sustain happiness and passion and long term relationships. And you have done a lot of work recently on kind of this theme of love, the one you're with. And so much comes to mind when I think about that. I think about how so many of us put our best foot forward in the beginning of a relationship and then sort of stop trying.
[00:02:07] Speaker C: Right.
[00:02:07] Speaker B: You know, I think about the fact that there's so much out there on personal growth and change, like when is it too much versus when should we just learn to love and accept the person standing in front of us? Or when should we grow as individuals? Like, there's just so much to talk about as it relates to this topic. So.
[00:02:26] Speaker C: Right.
[00:02:27] Speaker B: I'm going to turn it over to you. Tell me kind of where you'd like to jump in and why you think this has been front and center of your work recently.
[00:02:37] Speaker C: Well, some of it is exactly what you just already touched on there, Emily, is the idea of we come into this with a idealized dream of what relationships will be. Right. And a lot of it is the Hollywoodization hall marketization of. Of relationships that it'll be. We realize there's going to be conflict when wrap it up in 30 minutes or an hour, because that's how long the show is. Right. And then we'll fall into bed together, and the birds will chirp and sing while we have passionate sex.
[00:03:10] Speaker B: Rainbows and butterflies.
[00:03:11] Speaker C: Right. Married life just doesn't unfold that way. And so a lot of this is built off of the premise that I believe marriage works more on us than we ever could on it. And when I can flip the script that way, I start to realize there's a process at play.
[00:03:27] Speaker B: Okay, wait, hang on. You're. You're gonna have to break that down for me. Marriage works more on us than we work on it.
[00:03:35] Speaker C: I think. I think the relationship.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: I love it.
[00:03:39] Speaker C: I think a relationship dynamic challenges myself more than I can change it.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: Interesting. Yeah.
[00:03:47] Speaker C: And it reveals things in myself that I don't want to deal with.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:53] Speaker C: Or. Or face. Right. And so. And you also alluded to it that when we first started a relationship, you said, you know, we often put our best foot forward. I use the terminology of when we meet and fell in love, we really just met and fell in love with each other's marketing departments.
And then if we go a little bit into the relationship, it becomes office that's running the show. And then we meet middle management.
[00:04:18] Speaker B: Oh, God.
[00:04:19] Speaker C: As it keeps going, you start to meet the executive branches of the company, but the real nitty gritty is when you start meeting the back office, the people that are actually running the show.
[00:04:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Interesting. What a. What an analogy.
[00:04:36] Speaker C: Well, I think it fits because a lot of times I don't want the underbelly of what's going on. That. Not that it's. Not that it's negative or nefarious and. And illegal.
[00:04:48] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:04:48] Speaker C: But there's elements of me that are poorly developed. There's elements of me that aren't even born yet or I have been trying to avoid and be distracted from for my entire life, because there's an element of me I don't like about me. And relationships of. Of any length on a committed level, which. That's why I use the word marriage, which is interchangeable with any committed relationship in the way I think about it, at least that's going to be exposed because I can't hide that from the person that I live with.
[00:05:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:20] Speaker C: It will come out. And so I think of it as. Rather than getting mad at them for showing up with a mirror and reflecting that back at me. I need to have the courage to look at it as, okay, what is that in me? And so the idea of loving the one I'm with and the framework is really more about how do I see the fact that my spouse is challenging me in these ways doesn't mean something's going wrong and they should stop or they have evil intent.
Instead, it's okay. What's actually being exposed in me? What, what, what do I really need to face here?
[00:05:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:05:59] Speaker C: That will make me better and then my relationship better.
[00:06:02] Speaker B: Yes. I love that. And what keeps coming to mind as I'm listening to you is, you know, there's such an emphasis, I think, out there on people doing individual work before getting into a relationship and such an emphasis on self care. And what I always tell people is like, you do all the individual work you want. There are parts of yourself that are going to need to be worked on again.
[00:06:25] Speaker C: Oh.
[00:06:26] Speaker B: Once you're in relationship with another person. Like I really think that so much more healing can happen within the context of a relationship because that's the only time those parts are going to come out.
[00:06:38] Speaker A: I just launched tons, tons of awesome bonuses on my website. People who purchased just one copy of my new book, Anatomy of Desire, get things like the Intimacy discussion Deck, a deck of 52 cards with questions designed to deepen connection and the 30 day intimacy challenge, a calendar with daily exercises design designed to deepen connection and expand your erotic horizons. You get access to my master class and so much more. By purchasing Anatomy of Desire, you get access to nearly $300 worth of bonuses. I've got a pleasure playlist. I've got a desire summit. I've got an Unlocking Masculine and Feminine Desires webinar. I mean the list goes on and on. Visit emilyjamia.com for all the details.
[00:07:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I mean my wife and I were 3111 half years into this thing with each other. Married 30, 36 together. Right.
[00:07:35] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:07:36] Speaker C: And we were, we were on a walk last night with our dog, which we do twice a day, typically morning and night we go on walks and most of the times it's real talks that we will have and this was one of them. And I was bringing up something about the stage of life we're in because we're in between homes. We're living with my sister in law right now because our house isn't quite ready that's being built. So we own nothing really right now, which is a fabulously free feeling.
[00:08:02] Speaker B: I bet.
[00:08:03] Speaker C: But it's also like, God, there's a lot of state of flux right now. And we were just talking about original plans we had talked about in dreams and how they've changed. And then I'm kind of seeing that this is what I want to do now. And she's like, really? You've never taken that stance? And I'm like, well, it seems like you're occupying that stance now. She's like, no, I've never. So it's like all of that stuff is built on history of, with, with each other that I hold her responsible for, but not me.
I'm free to change. You aren't. Rather than. Wait a second. There's a process going on here.
[00:08:40] Speaker B: Right.
[00:08:41] Speaker C: And I need to handle and face what's my part in it, which is just me.
[00:08:47] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think it's like what I'm thinking of right now is the difference between perception and perception in perspective. I think a lot of times we get locked into our own kind of narrow perception of either ourselves, our partner, or an external problem, rather than stopping and taking a step further back and looking at what our partner's perception on that issue may be and then jointly creating a broader perspective, like what you're saying on your walk. It's like she didn't see things the same way.
[00:09:21] Speaker C: Right. Rarely. Rarely does, actually.
[00:09:24] Speaker B: Yeah. Gotta keep things interesting.
[00:09:28] Speaker C: Well, and. But again, there's nothing wrong with that because. And I think that's the thing that becomes so troublesome is what I want to do a lot of times with my fusion brain of where I want us to be in lockstep all the time, because for some reason that seems easier when in reality it's not going to be easier, it's probably going to be even more boring.
[00:09:48] Speaker B: Going to be. That's the first thing I think. I'm just boring. Yeah.
[00:09:51] Speaker C: Right.
Tension is an important aspect of a vibrant life.
[00:09:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:09:57] Speaker C: And so there's an element of I want to change her or challenge her and I wish she were fill in the blank rather than how do I face her as she actually is. Because that's also what I'm wanting her to do with me, is accept me for me back office and all right. Rather than hold on it. This is a two way street of we both are challenging each other in the best of circumstances to. To be better. Which then creates an entirely different way to approach a relationship. Because I start seeing it as her reaction, doesn't mean anything's wrong. It's just exposing something about one or Both of us, most of the time. Both of us. And so what do I do with.
[00:10:44] Speaker B: That break down for me, this overlay of. Or juxtaposition, maybe overlay is a better word of accepting your partner as they are with growth. Because at first glance it seems like that would be opposite of each other. You know, to accept someone where they are versus this with which almost to me seems kind of like you stick a picture and. And learn to love it versus this dynamic of growth and evolution and change that you're describ. Like, how do you do both at the same time?
[00:11:17] Speaker C: Well, I think that's. That's the constant process at play of. Rather than seeing it as how come you won't. Because that's just focused completely on the negative. How do I start to see it as, okay, this is who they are at this moment in time? Because this is also built on some of the brain science I've been diving into the last decade or so with some of the trainings I was going to on the idea of. We make maps of people around us. And I have a map of my spouse and I oftentimes I also use the concept of software iterations that I'll see. My wife, Pam, I'll sometimes interact or react to her as Pam 2.0 because that's the map in my brain rather than she's actually PAM 5.2.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:07] Speaker C: Right. That. And I have not adjusted to that woman yet. So I'm holding her responsible for something she was rather than. That's not who she is. And I think that's the constant tension that to me is invigorating about a relationship because it's a constant growth process, hopefully. And if I work to adjust me, I then challenge the relationship that she then has to work to adjust her. And now we're both in this growth cycle. Hopefully.
[00:12:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:41] Speaker C: Of constantly facing what needs to be faced, dealing with what needs to be dealt with, and then addressing the. The blind spots or. Or the spots that aren't born yet.
[00:12:53] Speaker B: Totally.
[00:12:53] Speaker C: It's like, you know what? No, that freaks me out for a second. And so I use that kind of concept in the sense of loving or facing who they are. Not as in I have to just swallow it hook, line and sink or this is all it's ever going to be. And instead it's why am I fighting what I know they are? Because that's actually a chance to really learn to love who they really are. Which I think.
[00:13:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Or I was gonna say or fighting or pushing down maybe a part of Them that is beginning to emerge.
[00:13:26] Speaker C: Right, right. Because that's the part in us a lot of times. I mean, I know you've, you've got a lot of the same kind of work and longer a long term relationship too. And as things have evolved between you and your husband, when one of you kind of took a different growth step, it freaks out the other for a temporary moment because, like, wait, so now I got to adjust? Or when we had. The biggest example is when we choose to have children.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:48] Speaker C: Like, okay, we're welcoming this huge distraction into our relationship and then I get mad because I don't get the attention I used to get. Well, I brought that on myself.
[00:14:00] Speaker A: So.
[00:14:01] Speaker C: So if I will choose to.
No, hold on. This is producing something bigger. This is creating a different opportunity rather than, oh, why? Why me? Woe is me. How could this be? And instead it's just, how do I orient towards what's going on and actually face it rather than hold on to. Yeah, but I wish it was. And then I feel that just as a recipe for constant negativity, the Anatomy.
[00:14:29] Speaker A: Of Desire audiobook is finally here. And I am so excited to offer you a sneak peek. Listen up for a 40 preview. If you like what you hear, be sure to order it on Audible or wherever you listen to audiobooks. And don't forget, audiobook purchases are also eligible for all the free bonuses on my website. Visit anatomyofdesire.com after completing your purchase for all the details. Enjoy the sample.
[00:14:55] Speaker D: I started paying closer attention to the language my clients were using to describe the sex. They wanted.
Words like effortless, absorbed, and electric stood out.
They wanted to feel lost in the moment, forgetting their woes and insecurities.
I spent hours poring over client notes, going back through sessions in my head and listening to people with the larger questions in mind.
What were we all searching for in the erotic realm? And was it realistically possible to attain?
And then it clicked. They wanted to experience a state of.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: Flow.
[00:15:38] Speaker C: In a lot of ways.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. And yeah, I mean, that's something, I think that's such a great example. I mean, I think of conversations my husband and I had, you know, earlier on when the kids were younger, where I won't say who, but one of us was kind of missing the, you know, going out and, you know, every single weekend and the travels. And the other one was like, well, this is kind of a season in life, a chapter in our life. Like, let's just dive into it and, you know, trust that there will be a time, hopefully in the not too distant future that. That you know, part of our life will return again. But it's that I think fighting change and evolution that sets people up for a lot of conflict.
[00:16:22] Speaker C: Yeah. And it's. And then when you apply this to our sex lives, I think the same components at play of. But we used to fill in the blank. I mean that's what we were talking about on. On Sex and Marriage Radio is the idea of what used to be that we. We would love to recreate. But in reality it's about how am I creating a better connection and. And the flow state in the real time.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: Right.
[00:16:45] Speaker C: Which is more about me than it is my spouse. Although they play a big part in it.
[00:16:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:50] Speaker C: But it's my job to bring to bear my presence.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: And.
[00:16:55] Speaker C: And if I look at my sex life I can get so caught up on what's not happening that I miss. Okay. But what is actually happening? Who is this person that. That I'm actually experiencing this with? And then I get the better decisions of what do I do about that? Because this is the thing I hear a lot from my clients, particularly the higher desire husbands. I'm just going to use the male female dynamic for a moment just for clarity's sake. But it fits regardless of gender. I'll get a higher desire husband that's complaining all the time that his wife is not engaged in sex. But he continually pursues non engaged level sex and then blames her for not ever engaging.
[00:17:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:41] Speaker C: When if you look at it objectively from her side of the equation, there's nothing required of her. But other than being non engaged.
[00:17:48] Speaker B: Right.
[00:17:48] Speaker C: He's still gonna lap it up as if it's the best thing ever.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:53] Speaker C: And so his part in that is what are you accepting yet complaining about.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Are you creating sex worth wanting?
[00:18:03] Speaker C: But it's also are you're accepting things that you're saying you don't want so you're out of align with you.
[00:18:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:10] Speaker C: In this. So it's. But. But that means I have to not have sex. Yeah. For a bit maybe. But it's just that idea of how do you face who they really are and then address yourself and them better.
[00:18:24] Speaker B: Right. Right. It's the ability to do both at the same time. You know, when do you kind of accept a. Let's say a part of your partner that's coming out that maybe you don't necessarily love versus trying to kind of push them towards growth maybe by growing yourself or giving opportunities for them to come for this part to maybe to emerge in a Different way. Like where for you is this line between accepting parts of them versus nudging growth?
[00:18:59] Speaker C: Well, okay, so I. I use the. This is a great question, Emily. Because I. I use the concepts of accepting them doesn't necessarily mean condoning them. It means relating to them better with that aspect of them.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:15] Speaker C: So this is not Pam 5.2, but Pam 3.1.
[00:19:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:22] Speaker C: When she shifted into the world, the job she's in now, in tax season as a cpa, there would be times where it's crunch time. It's all about that, even when she's here. And so I would get ticked off about. You're never here.
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:19:40] Speaker C: You know, even when you are, you're not here. And. But when I started recognizing. Okay, hold on. This is a commitment we both made. He's wrestling. And I know from hearing her, she wants to learn to be here. She wants. You know, it's something she wants. She doesn't like that aspect of her. Of course. So when I stopped harping on in my own map and mental dialogue about that, I was able to start actually cultivating an arena that maybe was more inviting. That maybe was. And it doesn't mean it changes overnight. But I liked who I was better as that guy.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:20] Speaker C: It wasn't about her. But then the interesting thing is, is when I handle myself better in a committed relationship, if the relationship truly is committed on both parts, both will change. It's a better use of that pressure.
[00:20:32] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely.
[00:20:34] Speaker C: It changes the dynamic because it's more based on love and inviting without obligating them or demanding it. Because if we're human beings and if I get an obligation thrown my way, there's a rebellious part of me that's like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna dig in. Even though what you're asking me to do, I may actually like. But I'm digging in because you told me to.
[00:20:55] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:55] Speaker C: That I have to. And so I think it's just when I truly then learn the opportunity of loving them, that's a different, better use of the pressure in the dynamic to see does she then face that dynamic. And then it shifted over the years to where she's like, I still don't feel like I'm around much. But I'm like, yeah, baby, when you are here, I sense you're here more. And she's like, really? And you could see the. Oh, okay, good. You know, because, like, I've really been trying to do that and Because I realized there's a lot of aspects of life they're non negotiable. We, we chose.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:21:37] Speaker C: And. And so I hold somebody responsible for something I helped choose and create.
That's just not a good. That's not being a good partner.
[00:21:45] Speaker B: No.
[00:21:45] Speaker C: Or a good person.
[00:21:47] Speaker B: Right, right. Well, I think a lot of us get kind of short sighted. You know, it sounds like what you're talking about is there are going to be these little seasons or let's even say like microclimates where there's a shift in the relationship but we can't get so locked into this like rebellion or like, wait a second, there's a change that we lo of the bigger picture and acknowledging that maybe this kind of immediate shift we're feeling in the present could be part of a broader shift in the relationship that won't feel so intense or strong maybe once the dust settles.
[00:22:25] Speaker C: Well, and I also think of this as the terminology that I've been using with the brain science world and using the concept of moves that people are making moves around me, as am I. I'm making moves towards something I. Or something I don't want. Well, they're doing the same thing. Well, when it comes conflictual in a marriage, oftentimes I think my move has to pin them down so they see the error of their ways and. Oh, I see what you're saying here. And now all of a sudden they change and they're all on board when I know for a fact that's not what's going to happen, but I keep going down that path.
[00:23:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:02] Speaker C: So instead it's me just getting better at recognizing the moves that are being made around me and then me making moves that make it a little more difficult to get around me.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:13] Speaker C: So at least I'm owning to what's important. And I see. Do they adjust to that or not? Because if they don't, I've got a different issue on my, on my plate.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: Right, right.
[00:23:26] Speaker C: But most marriages do actually they kind of shift or like I didn't realize that was that big of a. Okay, wait.
[00:23:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:33] Speaker C: And now I can at least get honest about what we're really fighting about.
[00:23:36] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:23:38] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: I think it's to keep in mind that, you know, any system will collapse if it's too chaotic or if it's too rigid. Yes. We have to maintain some flexibility. Like the trees that survive in the hurricanes are the weeping willows, which are actually a lot more flexible than, you know, a tall oak tree because you need that flexibility to weather through storms that are going to happen in the relationship. And so I feel like a lot of what you're talking about is striking that balance between growth and acceptance, which isn't necessarily a balance. You strike once and it stays there. It's kind of this ever changing.
[00:24:20] Speaker C: Well, I think those would be a. Both and wouldn't they?
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:24:24] Speaker C: That it's that I'm accepting and I'm growing because I'm having to grow to learn to accept. And by my growing to learn to accept. Hopefully you grow.
Exactly. And it's just this constant.
[00:24:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:36] Speaker C: State that happens between the. The relationship dynamic, which I think all relationships are designed to do that that just gets more intense the more commitment level there is.
[00:24:48] Speaker B: What is the brain science that is informing a lot of this area of your work lately?
[00:24:54] Speaker C: So the Dr. David Schnars who came up with the crucible.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: 30 years ago, the last 10 to 15 years, came up with the crucial crucible neurobiological therapy. So it's brain to brain therapy. And it was looking at the. The state of mind or the theory of the mind. And he kind of then adapted it some.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:18] Speaker C: To where it's. It's looking at your brain functioning levels. So he started using the terminology of regressions. And it's not regressing back to a childlike state. It's just regressing where my brain's not functioning well to an outdated software. Right. Well, it's also like, it's just. It's too overwhelmed, it's too stressed, it's too chaotic. It's. I mean, these are the phrases we use of. It's a temper tantrum. It's a flooded state.
It's. It's a spaghetti brain. I can't hold the thought. I've got fogged brain or something. And that's just. He uses that in the, in the concept of a regressing.
[00:25:56] Speaker B: I'm.
[00:25:57] Speaker C: I'm just not. I'm regressed. And when I can say it that way, I start coming up a little bit. I start addressing things differently because I'm more aware of where I am.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: Interesting. Now that you say it's Schnarch, it's. It's making a bit more sense to me. I've always loved David Schnarch's work, but I didn't know that he had gotten more into the neurobiology and brain science side.
[00:26:18] Speaker C: Oh, yeah.
[00:26:19] Speaker B: So I check it out.
[00:26:21] Speaker C: Yeah. The last like six trainings I went to before he passed away was all this. And it's like, oh, this is a whole different way to look at.
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:26:30] Speaker C: All the other things I'd already been trained by with him.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Yeah, well. And so for people listening who aren't familiar with his work, you know, I think one of his. His core concepts is that of differentiation. It's right holding on to yourself while at the same time staying connected to your partner. Which is. That's what we're talking about here, right?
[00:26:53] Speaker C: That's the both end.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the both.
[00:26:55] Speaker C: And that's me being a better version of me because I'm staying committed to my relationship and that they. Those are playing off of each other and those. That's the mechanism then that challenges us to truly grow and hold on to what I hold dear.
[00:27:10] Speaker B: Yes. I love that. Awesome. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for chatting with me today. It's always such a pleasure. Tell people where they can follow your work and stay up to date.
[00:27:23] Speaker C: So my home world online is SMR fm, which stand. The SMR stands for Sexy Mars Radio. And so it's a show that's been going on on a weekly basis for. We just celebrated 13 years.
[00:27:37] Speaker B: That's amazing.
[00:27:38] Speaker C: This past weekend.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:27:40] Speaker C: Being on the air and as of the time of this recording, we're just a couple weeks away from episode 700, so.
[00:27:46] Speaker B: Oh my gosh.
[00:27:48] Speaker C: It's pretty crazy to think that it's still just blow and going and. And just trying to help couples frame conversations and actions in their marriages and in their sex lives that really help enhance all. Both of them.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Love it. Awesome. Well, I will be sure to link everything in the show notes so it's easy to find. Dr. Corey, thanks again and I look forward to staying connected.
[00:28:13] Speaker C: Thank you so much, Emily.
[00:28:16] Speaker A: Thanks again for listening to Love in Libido with me, your host, Dr. Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and drop me a five star review. Positive ratings help keep the show going. Don't Forget to visit emilyjamia.com to see how you can access dozens of free bonuses when you purchase my new book, Anatomy of Desire, currently available everywhere books are sold. Additionally, you can follow me across all the social media channels at dremilyjamia. Thank you for listening.
