Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: You're listening to sex and love with me, your host, Doctor Emily Jamia. This series focuses on all topics related to sex and love, both here in the US and around the world. My goal is to not only showcase sexually empowered people, but also give a voice to the challenges many face due to the taboo nature of sexuality in many cultures.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Welcome, everybody. I am so excited for today's interview. I am joined by doctor Evelyn Stollart, who is a dutch sexologist and psychologist based in Amsterdam. She owns a sexology practice called Evelyn Stollart sexual health and is involved as an expert in various dutch media, including nationwide tv and newspaper, and is the sex and relationship expert on the dutch version of Married at First Sight. Thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:01:00] Speaker C: Yes, hello.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: You know, I started this series and in part because I'm so interested in shedding light on various cultural norms around sex and relationships. And, you know, I think probably here in the US, the first thing that comes to people's mind when they hear sex in Amsterdam is the red light district, which we'll get into. But I want to save that and begin by talking about, just in general, the dutch sentiment or feeling around sex, because it's a very progressive, liberal country when it comes to sexology. And I think that starts from a very early age, just in the sex education around youth. Could you maybe start by talking about that a little bit?
[00:01:46] Speaker C: Yes, of course. Yes.
Yeah. I think it is common that every boy and girl gets some first information from their parents when they are, I think, somewhere from seven to eleven, and then they get, hopefully a book from their parents with a suitable education about sexuality. Yeah. Often that is, of course, difficult for the children. So at school there's also. There are different moments they have there already in springtime, they have those kind of information when the birds and the bees and all the little animals get born, and then you already have the playful information about that. And later on, there's also, in the biology lesson, there's a lot to learn and there are even condoms that are put on things. So it's pretty okay. I think we can still do much better in Holland with sexual education, but I think we're doing a great job in that. Yeah. And of course, there is the whole thing that in Holland it is allowed to smoke weed. So I think a lot of young people start doing that. And of course, we can also start earlier, I think, than in America with alcohol.
So that makes us also earlier in youth experiencing those things and therefore also maybe earlier in sexuality. I can imagine that that is one of the reasons. And yeah, I think all parents tell their children that sex is something that you can enjoy.
[00:03:26] Speaker B: Right.
[00:03:26] Speaker C: And I think that's a good thing. And of course not everybody does, but in essence, it's a thing that you can enjoy. You're allowed to enjoy it. Yeah. You don't necessarily need to keep it. How do you say for after marriage, it's all fine if you just gonna explore and have it in your own time. So that's a bit how we see it in Holland. And it's something. Yeah. Joyful and fun and light.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Yeah. I think you hit on a few key points and one of the most important being that this is not a one time conversation that happens at school like here in the US. A lot of times there's like a one time conversation that happens maybe in fifth or 6th grade and it's about periods. And it's a lot of times usually very fear based. There isn't much information, especially where I live in Texas, on comprehensive sex education. So a lot of kids never get instruction on how to properly use condoms or anything like that. I also heard you say that kids are getting information both at home and at school in various formats. There is conversation and dialogue. There's also books given. But I think generally what probably makes the dutch model stand out against the us model is that it's very pleasure based and focus a positive light set on sexuality. And I know you said a moment ago that some sexual practices may start a little bit earlier, but one study I read said that a lot of kids end up having their first sexual experiences around the same time as kids here in the US. And I think that there is a fear that if we start the conversation too soon that it's going to make kids want to have sex earlier. But first of all, we don't really find that to be true in the research that I've read. Second of all, I think we see the benefit of comprehensive sex education. In the Netherlands, one study found that only 11.8 girls are getting pregnant per 1000 girls, compared to 72.2 pregnancy per 1000 girls here in the US. So that's quite a big difference. I think kids are much higher rates of condom use and so say there's room for improvement. But compared to what we have here in the US, you guys are a model to us.
[00:05:42] Speaker C: Yeah, well, that's good to hear, but yeah, that's so. Such a big difference. My God.
[00:05:48] Speaker B: Definitely, definitely. Can you say that that's sort of always been the case in Holland? Or is it something that's evolved in the past few decades. I'm curious the evolution of that and how that came to be.
[00:06:00] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. I think I'm now 39. I think my parents were a little bit more hesitant and more bit, how do you say it? Conservative.
So then it was more school, and it depended on your parents if they were, like, liberal or not.
But it got better and better and better. And, yeah, I'm also one of the people who's rooting for that. It gets even better. Also information about porn and all those things that are new in these things. That is so important. Yeah, I think it evolved, for sure. So it was more conservative, but not really, really different. Not big difference, I think.
[00:06:45] Speaker B: Okay, so tell me a little bit about how you came to be a sexologist and what piqued your interest in the field. I'd love to hear your story.
[00:06:54] Speaker C: Yeah, well, my story is I studied psychology in Maastricht in the south of Holland, and I really love that. But I'm a really happy person, positive person, and I found it a little bit heavy all the time about depression and anxieties. And, of course, that's a big part of the study. And at a certain point, I had a trimester sextology, and I was like, oh, but this is something that people underestimate, like, the effect that it has on a relationship, on your well being, on your quality of life. And I was like, okay, but I want to help people with that, that they can see. Like, hey, if you have that in a well, in a well way, can I say it? Then it gives your life so much more quality. So I saw a little something that draw me to that. Like, I'm gonna do this. This is my mission.
So, yeah, so I. I pointed my things, everything on that. And from then on, I worked several places at a rehab and at a hospital as a sexologist. And at a certain point, I was like, okay, but now I'm gonna have my own practice and do it myself. And that was the point I wanted to achieve, and I did. And I'm really happy to do that every day. And I want to show everybody that there should not be a taboo, and even in Holland, a lot of taboo still on sex. So, yeah, I hope to get that a bit. Loosen up the more and more, definitely.
[00:08:27] Speaker B: So, first of all, to your point about, I think you're right, when sex is good, life is good, right? And I think that sex is so life affirming, and it's so important for a relationship. And when people feel sexually satisfied, they tend to be happier and feel their lives are more meaningful and anxiety goes down. And so I think it's a really interesting window into the human psyche and opportunity to, you know, help people with a part of their lives that's so fundamentally human, yet still something that a lot of people have feelings of shame around. Generally speaking, there's a lot more acceptance around sexuality in the Netherlands compared to here in the US, which is still very puritanical. So what kinds of issues do people come in with?
[00:09:14] Speaker C: Yeah, most of the people that I see struggle with loss of desire, if I can say it that way. So they have difficulty with all the things in life that they want to do well, and they also want to have that great sex life, but they feel that it is all too much and they have stress and they have children, and they also have to do that part of sex, and that gives them sex drive. And then the balance is not there anymore in a relationship. And they come to me and they want. They want it to be different. And I see that this the most in my practice. And the funny thing is that it is not all women that have issue, because it's so typically that we all say, like, oh, but the women, they do and sometimes have difficulty with desire. But no, it's also men. And I think it's really great that men have the balls to go and get some help from a sexologist in that and just say out loud, like, okay, I have difficulty with that, too. And, yeah, so it's both men and women who struggle with this problem a lot.
[00:10:20] Speaker B: I would imagine in Holland, where there's more gender equality, that you probably see even more of a split because there tends to be more equal distribution of household responsibilities and child rearing. And so, like, here, a lot of that still falls on the mother's shoulders or the woman's shoulders. And so there's probably, I see more men with low desire than people might think. But I would imagine there, just because of gender equality, you probably see an even more even distribution.
[00:10:48] Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's a good thing that people dare to get help, and I think that also gets better and better.
They hear about it more on social media and they're like, hey, maybe that is something that I need to change or need to work on. And then they get help. And I'm so happy with that, that people do because it gives them so much relief. Like, oh, there is help and there is a solution, and I'm so happy that they all go out the door with a big smile and the motivation to work on it. So that's so great.
[00:11:21] Speaker B: Yeah, that's what makes our work so gratifying and fulfilling, I think.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: So tell me a little bit about what relationship trends you're seeing in the Netherlands. My understanding is that people aren't getting married as much as they used to, that people are opting for, like, legal partnerships, which is different in some ways than marriage. Can you talk a little bit about why you think, you know, marriage might be on the decline and what the difference is between a marriage and a registered partnership versus just cohabitation?
[00:11:51] Speaker C: Yeah, I think in Holland, the more. And the more women have the feeling like, okay, I want to be equal to my partner, and I have my own money and I have my own things, and that's fine. And when they get married, it's. A lot of women don't see the value of sharing everything. And, yeah, we had a system for a long time that we all had to split. When people get divorced 50 50, but I think since a year or something, that is gone and that makes a difference for people because then they say, okay, it's fine to marry because we have our own money, and then we can just keep that in that kind of sense. I think the registered partnership registry, partnership in Dutch is the less romantic way, but it's fine. And for a lot of people, they're like, yeah, this is fine for us. And we put our money on other places and a bit of modern feeling, like, I'm not stuck to someone. And if it's not for life, then, yeah, then it can be.
[00:12:55] Speaker B: Also, what is the key difference between a registered partnership and a marriage?
[00:13:00] Speaker C: With marriage, you just do the pledge, like, for better, for worse, and you have more the bonds, and I don't think there is much difference in financial stuff or that kind of way, but it's all like, in your head that it's more. A bit more connected. I'm married, too, and I think it's beautiful to give each other the vow, to always work on their relationship and not to leave each other very easily. But a lot of people, I think, yeah, especially in Holland, they think a little bit modern about that, and they're more like, yeah, but if it's not that for me anymore, then I just leave. And so it's easier to quit the register partnership, then to quit a marriage, then it's more difficult and cost more money, that kind of things.
[00:13:48] Speaker B: Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So people are having this attitude that, hey, I think we're living longer, and this might not be the only relationship I have for my entire life. Let's be realistic and, you know, get the legal benefits of marriage without the romantic long term promise. Yes.
[00:14:06] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of people say, well, I rather spend more money for my children than for a big marriage. And everybody is really okay with that in Holland. So that's, I think, why people just feel free to choose this or that. But, yeah, you see more in Holland that people choose also for open relationships. Now, most of the time, those people are not married, but then they're saying, like, hey, it's okay to have someone or to have sexual contact with someone else.
[00:14:34] Speaker B: It's interesting, you know, I've been doing this work for about 15 years now, and when I first started, maybe once every six months, a couple would come in wanting to explore the idea of non monogamy or open relationships. And now I would say it's a conversation that comes up at least once a week, that people are curious, you know, to explore that. So it sounds like you're seeing the same trend.
[00:14:57] Speaker C: For myself, I'm always like, yeah, what you feel that you're happy with is the best. And if you can have a balance in your relationship, because I think that's the most important, it's fine. But it's. Yeah, it acquires a lot of good conversations and good rules for that, I think. And that is not always the fact, I'm afraid.
[00:15:21] Speaker B: Yeah, I think people underestimate how important communication and boundary setting and rulemaking is to do that, you know, without hurting anybody. So you mentioned that you work on. You're the expert for the dutch version of Married at first sight, which I didn't even realize, realized there was a dutch version. And so despite this trend towards non monogamy and registered partnerships, it still sounds like there's a group of people who want to get married and are struggling to find someone. So I'm curious about that group of people as well, and what you see.
[00:15:55] Speaker C: Yeah, I think there are still a lot of people who want to marry from religious reasons, but also just from the romantic kind of way, just the picture and then the big wedding gown and the vows.
But what I see from the program is that a lot of people struggle with dating, with always falling for the wrong person or the same, and then they end up in difficult situations. But we have tinder. I think that is common also in America. And, yeah, dinner is in Holland. It is really a superficial way to connect with people because it's often about sex. And people who are really searching for relationships, they sometimes find a relationship with that. But often they get people who are just on the search for a booty call. Unfortunately, people struggle then, a lot. Yeah. They sign up for married at first sight because they trust in science to give them the right person, and they don't trust themselves anymore to find one. So they trust enough. And every year we have a lot of new people who apply. And also this year, it was, again, a lot. But they're all, like, beautiful and nice and sweet and great. So I'm like, why? But, yeah, I'm happy to help them find a great, hopefully perfect match. Yeah.
[00:17:22] Speaker B: They just need a little expert guidance, I think. Yeah, there's a lot of. That's what my colleague here says as well, that these are wonderful people who. A lot of them have just had bad luck.
[00:17:31] Speaker C: Yeah, I'm really happy that I'm part of the show because a lot of people say it's insane, but in Holland, I don't know how it is in America, but in Holland, it's really pure. People are not casted, they're not models or they're not actresses and really want to find love, and they're not paid, and they get really married in Holland. So in a lot of countries, it's fake, but in Holland, it's real. It's a big thing.
[00:17:59] Speaker B: That sounds like a lot of fun. So let's talk a little bit about the red light district, because I think that's what Amsterdam is most well known for, and I think that's probably what a lot of our listeners are most curious about. So what would you say first? Let's say, what are some of the biggest misconceptions about prostitution in Amsterdam?
[00:18:22] Speaker C: Yes, that's a good one. Well, I think a misconception is that, yeah, it's difficult because it's so different. There are girls who are really happy in what they do. They're like, no, this is my choice, and I pay for my rent like this, and I'm happy and I'm all fine. But still there is some hidden heaviness, and there is still, like, a darker side to it. Yes, for sure. A darker side. And there are probably still women doing this against their wills. And that's the darker side that I'm often thinking, like, oh, my God. Yeah, that's also going on. But I know that the government and the mayor of Amsterdam is really having their rules up and really looking very strict on everybody. And so I think it's a lot less already. But still, if people want to be bad in those things, they can. But I think the majority of the red light district are women who are really happy in what they're doing, happy that they can earn their money in this way. And, yeah, everybody their own taste.
[00:19:31] Speaker B: I think definitely something for everybody. Are the majority of the workers dutch, or would you say they come from other countries?
[00:19:40] Speaker C: It is around 50 50. What I see is that it's also a lot of tourists who use the women or can I say that? Who go to prostitutes. I'm sorry, but there are also a lot of dutch men. And I don't know if you see it a lot in your practice, but what I hear a lot from my clients is that there are a lot of clients that are porn addicted. And then they have like the prostitutes as their extra shot of dopamine because give the brain so much dopamine and then they go and search for those prostitutes to give them that extra great feeling.
So that is what I hear often in my practice, that those guys go to the prostitutes and. Yeah, that's a little bit of a new movement that I see for using prostitutes. Yeah.
[00:20:31] Speaker B: So tell me what your feeling is about prostitution generally. As a sexologist, and what's your general sentiment around the profession?
[00:20:41] Speaker C: It's difficult because I, of course, I would only say do it when you really want it and when you have, like, when you enjoy it and not for the money and not for the outcome. And maybe some say I enjoy it every minute. As a sexologist, I would say it is beautiful if you can combine love and sexuality, and for some people it is just lost. That is also okay, I think. But I rather have them enjoying it and I hope that that is the case. So that is what I'm thinking. Like, I hope that you're safe and that I know what they're doing. And, yeah, on that level, yeah, it's fine that it exists and it's one of the oldest jobs.
I think it will always exist and that's fine, but I hope they stay healthy.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: I think that's interesting what you say, because there's a lot of conversation here in the US around the decriminalization of prostitution in the hopes that decriminalizing it will help these women have more access to healthcare and have more protection. I think that there's a lot of fear around reporting violent crimes because women are afraid that they'll get in trouble for doing so because they're breaking the law themselves. And, you know, people think too that sex trafficking will go down significantly if there's decriminalization, which it sounds like all of that has happened in the Netherlands, but it's not 100%. And there are still women who are probably having sex against their will. And is it primarily women working in the red light district, or are you seeing. There's probably something for everybody, for women?
[00:22:21] Speaker C: No, there are only the galos and those guys there are here, but you have to call them, I think, or order them online, but maybe I'm not aware of it. But I don't think there are males behind the red windows.
[00:22:40] Speaker B: That's interesting. Yes. And what I understand about the red light district is it's actually one of the safest areas in the city now because there's such a high police presence to try to protect the women. Is that right?
[00:22:51] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure. There's a lot of police there, but it is also still very crowded, so it is still a hotspot. And some people are just only checking out and just luring a bit, and other people enjoy it a lot. So, yeah, it's such a double way of what is going on there.
[00:23:13] Speaker B: Yeah. I've only visited Amsterdam once, and, of course, being a sexologist, I had to take myself to the red light district just to check it out. It was a little bit different than what I anticipated. It was very crowded. You could tell there were a lot of tourists and a lot of people just kind of gawking at the women, which, you know, was a little bit hard to see.
[00:23:33] Speaker C: Yeah. Sometimes I feel sorry for them, but I don't think that is necessary. I'm always imagining, like, how would their day be? But, yeah, that is. We probably cannot imagine that. And it's more like factory. We work like, one by one by one.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Do you have any that you've treated in your practice?
[00:23:56] Speaker C: Yes, yes, I treat. Yeah. Yeah. But they're more like call girls, so. More girls at clubs.
Yeah. They had difficulty because then they wanted to have a relationship next to their work, and that they found really difficult to combine that and. Yeah, so. But it's really good that they get help for that. But not a lot. But some. Some do.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: And, yeah, that seems to be the biggest issue, is that they're trying to navigate how to have a primary romantic relationship alongside working as a cult. Yeah.
[00:24:29] Speaker C: And from the brain, it's a whole different way of having sex, to be only having a performance or really making love.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: So you said that the primary issue you treat is loss of desire, which is the same. You know, that I would say I treat as well. Generally speaking, though, with the more progressive attitudes in the Netherlands around sexuality, what do you see, in terms of people feeling hung up about sexual desires that they might have or specific fantasies or kinks, do you see people struggle with that very much? Or would you say there's wider acceptance for a variety of sexual interests?
[00:25:12] Speaker C: Yeah, I think there are still a lot of taboos on those things that are not in the normal mainstream. Yes, yes, yes. So I think that's what people do. We all want to be normal. We want to be part of a group, and we all want to be somehow a bit the same. So if that's not it, I think we all feel different. And if feeling different can sometimes be. Yeah, not so great. So they struggle, and some people are really tough and they just say, okay, it's this and I love it and it's great, but I think the majority of the people really struggle with.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:51] Speaker C: Fetishes and things that are just not being normal in that sense. And I often think it's a pity because it's something that, from youth on, you got into your system and it gives you probably a warm and great feeling. And, yeah, a lot of people can integrate it in their lives if you just try to find the best way. I hope for the future that people own it more. Like, hey, this is apart from me and it's okay.
But, yeah, that takes time, I think.
[00:26:22] Speaker B: I'm surprised to hear that. I would have thought that people felt freer sexually.
[00:26:27] Speaker C: And I also see that with. And this may be also interesting. I don't know how it is in the USA with masturbating. There are still a lot of girls in Holland will have the feeling that masturbating is a thing that you do if you don't have sex with your partner. Not enough. Or if you're. If you're sad or alone or. But not when you're just having your relationship and doing it next to your. So to your partner sex. And that's such a pity. And I'm like, oh, yeah, we're living in Holland, and come on. Then I do my best to get it out there. Like, please do it because it's healthy and it's good and it's. It is only making you a better partner in bed. And maybe an interesting thing to know is that in Holland, if you have them, I don't know how you call it in English, but if you have the pelvis, you have, like, the vulva, the vagina. You all know that has the same names, I think, but the vulva in front. So more against the Belvis, we call it in Holland, shame area.
Schamstreg. And it's so horrible. So it's from way, way, way back. Call it literally, if you, if you translate it, it's called shame area. And that's such a stupid word. And it's still in our dictionaries. It's still the only word we use.
If we talk about our vulva or vagina or the fronts and sort of pelvis, the whole area is Schamstreg. Yeah. Shame area. Wow.
[00:27:58] Speaker B: I am shocked to hear that.
[00:28:01] Speaker C: Horrible.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: Is there a push to change the name or advocacy against that language?
[00:28:07] Speaker C: There have been a lot of people who said that, like, please give it a different name and just call it the way it is, like Vova or.
Yeah, it's really, I think, in our culture and in our language, and it's. It's stuck there. A difficult thing.
[00:28:23] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm learning so much today that maybe it's not as progressive as I thought it was and things are changing for the better, but it's not quite as advanced. I guess I believed.
[00:28:35] Speaker C: I think everybody says that from Holland. And if you're living in it and it's like, yeah, we can do better in some points.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: So we'll wrap up with, what would you say are your top three tips for finding sexual fulfillment? I'm going to leave that very open ended. What would you say, your top three tips?
[00:28:53] Speaker C: My top three tips? Well, I think if I see it in a relationship way, I think that you mean that.
That I would say it is so powerful to make an effort for each other because I always compare it with a painting on the wall. You bought it at a certain moment, and at a certain moment, you don't see it anymore. It is there every day, but you don't see it. You just don't stop and look at it anymore and just take it in. So making an effort to see and hear each other and to see what the other one needs and to just take some time and quality time to make an effort to be open to sexual cues, to the whole broad sense of making an effort. It's not only to put on the lingerie. No. It's to really see and hear the other person. And of course, second, yeah, it sounds a bit boring, but it's communication. Communication. It's so important. And not only in a relationship, but I think also between friends, tell the other person, like, I have difficulty sometimes. It is not always so easy. Do you struggle also with this and this and that? Yeah. You can give the other person the feeling like, hey, I'm not alone or she's also having problems. So it's not so bad. So please do talk and communicate. The third one, I once read it that there is a lot of strength in sharing memories with your partner. So if you share memories about a really great moment where you had a really great laugh or a really great sex or that kind of things, if you share that again with each other and just, yeah, relive it a bit in your head, then it works through with your hormones and all the things going on in your brain, and that gives you an extra great feeling together. So do that once in a while and you will see that it has a lot of lightness to come with it. I think that's the most important thing to do. And we said it before, please enjoy. Never have sex for another person. Have it for yourself for your pleasure. And enjoy it and be lights.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: I think at a fundamental level, sex should be about mutual pleasure.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: And it doesn't need to be perfect. It can be messy, strange and goofy.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Something you laugh about, you know?
[00:31:15] Speaker C: Yeah. As long as you get happy of it, then it's great.
[00:31:18] Speaker B: Yes. Well, thank you so, so much for joining me today. It was a pleasure talking with you. I hope to visit Amsterdam again in the future and when I will definitely call you so that we can get.
[00:31:28] Speaker C: Together, let me know. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much that I was in this show and good luck with everything.
[00:31:35] Speaker B: How can people find you? Do you want to share your, your social media or your website?
[00:31:40] Speaker C: Yeah, people can find me on Instagram. Evelynn Stollard, but if you google me, sexologist Evelyn Amsterdam Evelyn, you will find me for sure.
[00:31:51] Speaker B: I'll put the link in the show notes as well.
[00:31:54] Speaker C: You are always welcome, everybody.
[00:31:56] Speaker B: Thank you so much.
[00:32:00] Speaker A: Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode episode of Sex and Love with me. Doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to, like, subscribe and share with a friend or partner. I release an episode every other Monday. You can find me on Instagram, Facebook and TikTok oyjamia. If you and your partner are struggling with emotional and sexual intimacy, check out my online workshop, available at www.emilyjamia.com. see you guys next time on sex and love.
