Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: You're listening to sex and love with me, your host, Doctor Emily Jamia. This series focuses on all topics related to sex and love, both here in the US and around the world. My goal is to not only showcase sexually empowered people, but also give a voice to the challenges many face due to the taboo nature of sexuality in many cultures.
Have you ever wondered how sex and love is experienced across the Atlantic on the iberian peninsula? Angela, tune in to today's episode where I interview portuguese sexologist and researcher doctor Rui Costa. Together, we'll learn why Portugal leads Europe in the country with the highest divorce rates, why it was voted the most gay friendly travel destination in the world, and how red wine might help you have transcendent sex. Only today on sex and love with doctor Emily Jamia.
[00:00:57] Speaker B: Thank you so much, everyone, for joining me today. I am doctor Emily Jamia and I am here with Rui Costa, who is a sexologist in Portugal. He is a professor and researcher, and I'll let him introduce himself a little bit so you guys can learn more about who we're speaking with today. Go ahead.
[00:01:19] Speaker C: Hello, Emily. So, I am a researcher at William James center for Research in Lisbon. I do research on psychological and psychophysiological factors that contribute to healthy sexual functioning. I'm particularly interested in the role of interceptive awareness, of imagination, of capacity to enter into absorbed states.
I'm also interested in which aspects of spirituality are involved in good sex. I'm also interested about how new technology, smartphones, social networks might be disturbing sexuality.
[00:02:14] Speaker B: Awesome.
[00:02:15] Speaker C: Awesome.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Everyone is excited to hear all about that. We're going to talk some about the research toward the end, but before we dive into that, let's open our discussion about sex in Portugal because I know people are curious to hear what's happening across the Atlantic. So Doctor Kosta and I connected recently because I published a research paper and cited some of his work. And he reached out to me to talk about our research a little bit because there are definitely some overlaps, and we'll talk about that, some toward the end of the interview. But since I was beginning this podcast talking about sex and love and relationships in different countries, and Doctor DaCosta is there in Portugal, I said, why don't we have a chat and talk about sex and love in Portugal? So here we are. So thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:03:08] Speaker C: Good morning.
[00:03:09] Speaker B: Good morning.
So, I traveled to Portugal once. I went about, gosh, maybe seven years ago now. And I have to say, I thought the Portuguese were some of the nicest people that I had encountered in all of Europe, I mean, just generally seemed happy and, you know, had no problem that I didn't speak very much Portuguese, although I tried my best.
[00:03:36] Speaker C: Well, they look relaxed. Yeah.
I think they look more relaxed than they truly are, to be fair.
[00:03:44] Speaker B: They were very relaxed.
[00:03:45] Speaker C: Okay. They look relaxed. Yeah.
[00:03:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And I'll never forget, I had. I was wearing, you know, we're walking all day long, and I was wearing a pair of shorts. We were there in the summer, and the zipper broke on my shorts, and so I stopped into this tailor to see if I could get it fixed, and she fixed the zipper and would not let me pay her. She said, please welcome to Portugal. We want you to come back. Like, she was so nice. She refused to let me pay her for fixing my zipper, and I was like, okay, I'm definitely coming back to Portugal. So I had such a lovely experience in your country, and I'm so excited to learn more today what the norms are around sex and relationships. So, without further ado, let's get to it.
As we were talking before, I told you, I thought it might be helpful for listeners just to have a little bit of information on what the backdrop is.
Politically, socially, culturally. So do you want to begin with that?
[00:04:49] Speaker C: Yes. Okay. Portugal has a catholic background, so there are basically almost no Protestants in Portugal. It's a completely south of european catholic country, which becoming, in very recent years, becoming liberal and liberal and liberal. So we have, let's say that we have a dichotomy between a catholic background and left wing liberalism, but the liberalism is becoming so pervasive that even people who consider themselves Catholics and right wing will be quite liberal. So sex before marriage is the norm.
I think. No one cares about masturbation, about homosexuality. So we already have gay marriage, gay adoption.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: So that's all that is at this point.
[00:06:05] Speaker C: Yeah. So, of course, you have some political resistance and more conservative political forces, but generally, Portugal evolved very quickly from a country we had a dictatorship, right wing dictatorship until seventies, and.
But in the last 20 years, now we are the country, I think, one of the countries in Europe with more divorces.
[00:06:38] Speaker B: I read that as I was preparing for this interview, that, like, 70% of marriages end in divorce, which is very un Catholic.
[00:06:47] Speaker C: Yes, very un Catholic.
But as I told you, Catholics are very liberal now.
[00:06:53] Speaker B: Right, right.
As long as you turn your rosary.
[00:06:58] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:06:59] Speaker B: Yes. So what do you attribute that to? The high divorce rates, because it's one of the highest in Europe. Right.
[00:07:07] Speaker C: I don't know. I was actually looking at about the factors that contribute for long term relationships. And I don't know any particular study in Portugal, but the literature that is being done a little bit around the world, very much in english speaking countries. And I see that the factors that contribute to long term relationships in english speaking countries are the same that contribute to long term relationships in Portugal. So people being autonomous, not being fatigued, having the relationship, feeling the relationship as, let me tell, as a self discovery trip.
[00:07:59] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:08:01] Speaker C: And I think Portuguese are missing these things a little bit. So I think they probably very fatigued. They don't see very much themselves in a self discovery trip, and maybe they lack some imagination, some creativity. So I think that's quite a problem that makes a lot of couples split. And when I'm talking about imagination, and I know you do some research, Emily, on imagination, I've been thinking a lot about this cultural clash, typical cultural clash that happens in Portugal and many other countries in which you have a conservative religious base background, Catholic or Protestant, which can contribute to a lot of inhibitions. We know that. And then we passed for a liberalism. But this liberalism often is very materialistic.
And because it's very materialistic, sometimes people want to do a lot of sex. They are open to a lot of sex, but they are not.
They do not cultivate imagination because the cultural time, it does not reply favor gets too materialistic. So I think this happens in many other countries. I think. I think Portugal are doing this transition, and they still, as many other countries to still find that balance.
[00:09:55] Speaker B: Balance between Italy. Yeah. And I think that's very common, especially when there's a big political switch, you know, switch, as there was in Portugal with the, you know, end of the fascist dictatorship in 74, that, you know, there's finally some freedom and a swing to the opposite side of the pendulum. And I think people kind of go crazy for a little bit, and, you know, sex becomes more about, like checking a box. Yes, I can finally do this. And less about the intimate nature of the act, the emotional connection, the substance of the experience. And so it's sounding like there's been a bit of a swing there, which has led to perhaps some dissatisfaction in relationships because couples are perhaps still figuring out how to strike that balance between sexual liberation and freedom with emotional closeness and comfort.
Definitely. Definitely. So you think that that's in part, what's leading to the higher divorce rates, is that couples have this big push towards.
[00:11:01] Speaker C: Yes. And, of course, the economic problems, because we know that when people are tired, it's more difficult to keep a relationship if you are very tired and if you are having economic problems, of course, that makes people tired, and I think also that also contributes. We are having many problems, and we had, ten years ago, we had a big crisis, so people lost a lot of their income that they used to have, so we still did not recover from that. Houses are very expensive.
Actually, many people. It's not only divorces that are increasing, it's marriages that are decreasing.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: People are getting married less.
[00:12:02] Speaker C: Yes. And many people, actually, many young people live with their parents for long. And it's not only because of cultural reasons, because Portugal is not really that tradition anymore, it's because they lack money. So actually, that is clearly a problem that we are facing.
[00:12:23] Speaker B: Right. So people are. Students are coming out of college, it's hard to find a good paying job. They're moving back home, living with their parents, and can't afford a home of their own, which is putting marriages off.
[00:12:34] Speaker C: Yes. Because the disparity between what people make and the prices of the houses, it's very. It's a very strong disparity.
[00:12:46] Speaker B: Right, right. And what, are people able to take out a mortgage in Portugal the way we are here in the United States, or do you have to pretty much save up and pay cash?
[00:12:56] Speaker C: You can.
You can't do that like United States, but still, it will be so expensive.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:05] Speaker C: And especially now, before the pandemic. Well, I could. I used to. I was living in a touristic area of Lisbon.
Sometimes I just go to the streets, and I'm the only Portuguese there.
[00:13:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:13:23] Speaker C: And it's not only because of immigrants, of course, it's also because of tourists. So there are more tourists than Portuguese in Samaria like that. So this also inflated the prices of the houses because many people from other countries want to live in Lisbon, have a vacation home. A vacation home, all these things. And of course, all this gives color, gives life to the city, makes the city much more cosmopolitan, and I like it. Yeah. But the prices skyrocket. And all these for the actual Portuguese.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: Too, they're getting pushed out a little bit. Yes. And are you in Lisbon yourself?
[00:14:12] Speaker C: Yes, you are?
[00:14:13] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. So you're right in the heart of.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: Everything I'm living now. I left my house in Lisbon. Now I'm living near the beach on the south side. I don't know if. Yeah, if. Probably when you were in Lisbon, you have the river and you have the nice beaches on the south side. So I'm now close to the nice.
[00:14:33] Speaker B: Beaches, especially during the pandemic. That's wonderful. You were able to escape. Yeah, when we were there, we spent. We drove south and spent some time in the Algarve region.
I'm not sure if I pronounced that correctly. And so beautiful, the beaches there. There's such a mix of sandy beaches with rock formations, and it's absolutely lovely. Definitely the picture perfect backdrop for good sex, I would think, in terms of the beauty of the country. Definitely.
[00:15:05] Speaker C: And very nice food. Very nice food, very nice wine, if you like wine.
[00:15:11] Speaker B: Support wine. And the NAta dessert. Oh, my gosh, I can taste it as we're talking about it. So Portugal also, despite still being very catholic culturally, has also. You said that it's totally legal now to have gay marriage, gay adoption, and it was actually voted one of the most gay friendly travel destinations. I read by Spartacus International Gay Guide, seeing an uptick in gay tourists to the area. And how have you.
[00:15:43] Speaker C: Yeah, I think you can feel that the city is gay friendly. Yes.
[00:15:50] Speaker B: Awesome. Awesome. And so how would you describe, overall, the nature of romantic relationships in Portugal? Would you say that within a coupleships that people feel sexually free with each other or have good sexual communication, feel sexually satisfied? What are you seeing with couples who are. I mean, we talked a little bit about some of the fatigue that people are feeling due to the economic circumstances, but what are you seeing in couples who feel overall happy and satisfied in their relationships?
[00:16:26] Speaker C: Yeah, I think the communication is good.
I think it's a country that you. In fact, this is a very nice country, as you told you, you stressed it's a very nice country to enjoy romance.
[00:16:43] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:45] Speaker C: You have nice views, nice beaches, nice restaurants, nice places to go out at night. So when we are in love with our partners, we have a lot of things to do in Lisbon.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:04] Speaker C: And I think that the city also is very enriching and very inspiring for people in London.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Definitely. Very, very vibrant.
Yeah, yeah. And how would you describe the sex education in Portugal? What kind of information are children taught in schools as they grow up?
[00:17:28] Speaker C: I think the sexual education is very much the same that is done in other western countries, but I think that most schools implement. Of course, there are some. That is sometimes an issue, because when more conservative people actually there can exert more pressure, because it's not the rights of adult people, it's their children. Okay. But the sexual education tends to be to have a liberal tone, of course, with a big stress on preventing pregnancy, on preventing diseases.
And I feel that when I talk to teachers about this, that much could be done, but still something that could be much more developed, but people don't really know what to do. So actually, that's an area for still further reflection and further development, but it goes in the tone of a liberal country.
[00:18:59] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah. Because, you know, I mean, in the US, there are some areas that have more comprehensive sex ed, but, you know, I live in Texas, which is still very conservative, and a lot of sex education here is very abstinence based. And, you know, still across the board, I think that there's more to be taught around.
What does it mean to experience pleasure sexually? How can you communicate likes and dislikes? How to negotiate that with your partner? There's still a lot to be had. And it sounds like maybe Portugal is kind of in line.
[00:19:32] Speaker C: Certainly, there are no such thing as the abstinence based sex education. Okay.
[00:19:38] Speaker B: So you're a little further ahead than Texas.
[00:19:39] Speaker C: Okay. Okay.
The problem is that some. Sometimes teachers also have problems because, well, sometimes if their sex life is not very good, you know, and they don't even think too much about it, comfortable, what am I going to say?
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:20:04] Speaker C: And who is the right person to teach sex education? So. Because usually it's the teachers that do this, but sometimes people outside of schools can come. But. So there is still some. In definition, I think there is still a lot to be done.
[00:20:26] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Yep. I know it's a. I think it has to be a global initiative. Truly.
[00:20:32] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:20:33] Speaker B: Now, your neighbors in Spain still have a bit more of a patriarchal kind of machismo culture. A little bit. Would you say that that's similar in Portugal, or are you finding that there's more gender equality compared to some of your.
[00:20:50] Speaker C: No, I think it's pretty much the same, yes.
[00:20:54] Speaker B: That there's more of a much.
[00:20:55] Speaker C: I would say. I would say that's pretty much the same.
[00:20:58] Speaker B: Okay. And give me some examples. How do you see that play out?
[00:21:05] Speaker C: Well, sometimes you go to.
To a dinner and there is a couple, and it talks. She doesn't talk.
So sometimes I even see these things even nowadays. Okay.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:23] Speaker C: So I think it's probably a good example.
[00:21:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:26] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:21:26] Speaker B: That's interesting. Are you seeing a more, you know, of an increase in feminist movements in Portugal?
[00:21:31] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, of course. And maybe that's. That's also a reason why there are many divorces.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:39] Speaker C: Actually, that's another. Another reason. Of course, there are complex issues. Of course. At some point, women don't want to endure for life. Very majestic relationship. Probably that's also a relationship for many divorces.
[00:22:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
[00:22:04] Speaker C: Lack of autonomy can play a role here. Okay.
[00:22:09] Speaker B: Yes. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. Women get to a point where they've had enough.
They file the divorce papers. And when couples get divorced in Portugal, are there any issues around child custody, or is it typically, you know, split between the parents?
[00:22:27] Speaker C: There have been some changes recently. Of course. It's split between the parents. Yeah. Nowadays, but, yeah, that's. The conflicts between ex partners because of children are very common.
[00:22:45] Speaker B: I know in some countries where there's stressful. Yeah, I know in some countries where there's stronger patriarchy, a lot of time, children end up, you know, going with the fathers, and that can cause a lot of problems, obviously, co parenting and for the mothers, but sounds like that's negotiated pretty well overall in Portugal.
[00:23:03] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:23:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Now, prostitution is legal in Portugal, which I did not know, and I was kind of surprised to learn. So talk about that a little bit and how you feel that that impacts relationships.
[00:23:18] Speaker C: Well, that's a hot topic.
Prostitution is legal and not regulated.
That it's not a crime for someone to receive money for sex and it's not a crime for someone to give money for sex. And apparently it's.
You can see a lot of advertisements. A lot, a lot of advertisements. And Portugal was actually more liberal than many other countries in this regard. Now we have the Internet, but because when the Internet was not so much developed, it was very not the best selling portuguese newspaper had extensive, extensive numbers of ads of prostitution.
It's the best selling. And they could put it side by side with completely normal news.
[00:24:25] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:24:26] Speaker C: So. And now we saw advertising advertisements in journals are not so common. But you go through the Internet and you see a huge, huge amount of sex work.
[00:24:44] Speaker B: Now you say it's a hot topic. Is it pretty widely accepted at this point or what? What contributes it to it? Staying kind of a hot topic.
[00:24:56] Speaker C: I think it's quite accepted, but I think many people don't even know what's going on because usually people only see what they want to see.
If you just look to the other side, you don't really see, but, like.
[00:25:22] Speaker B: It'S there if you're looking for it. But unless you're not looking. Unless you're looking for it, you might not see it.
[00:25:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, we not see it. Okay, so it's discrete enough, but, for example, you have also very common nightclubs in Lisbon that are specialized in sex work, and they are very famous, and it's very common for men go there. They have neons, so everyone knows that they are discreet at the same time. So it's not Amsterdam. Okay.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Work is legal, but I thought that brothels were not. Is that correct?
[00:26:02] Speaker C: Well, yeah, but in the end, you. It's very. There is always. The third part is illegal, of course, and someone makes the money as an intermediary, but authorities close the eyes.
[00:26:20] Speaker B: Okay. Okay. Okay.
[00:26:22] Speaker C: Because in most cases, it's impossible to not have the intermediary, right? There was some, some.
But this was almost history.
Some, I don't know, 2030, maybe 30 years ago, we had a case in which the women of the city in the north of Portugal, this one, very traditional, still very catholic, did a movement to put the sex workers out of the city because the husbands were not caring about them anymore.
[00:27:09] Speaker B: Okay. The women had enough. It was leading to infidelity issues.
[00:27:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
At a massive scale.
So there was an organization actually with the church behind.
And when these cases, the authorities come and stop things. But then it is raised a lot of controversy. Most people. For most people, this was interference with freedom.
Although they were authority, trial gave them say they were rights. Okay. Because there were intermediaries. Of course, for most people, I believe this was an interference in freedom.
[00:28:00] Speaker B: Okay. The people wanted that freedom to be a sex worker, if they wanted that. You said this movement, backed by the church, tried to shut it down, but ultimately were not successful.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: Yeah. Because if they were not happy with their marriages, right. If the husband spends all the sex worker. Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can, you can divorce. But in more conservative countries, or in more conservative areas, in this country, probably divorce was very difficult. So you have all these questions, but this was a very probably nowadays, even in that part of Portugal presently, that would not even happen nowadays. Probably the woman would divorce.
[00:28:43] Speaker B: Women divorce.
Yeah. Well, it seems like it, statistically speaking, it sounds like they'd be more likely to divorce.
Yes. Now, something else I found interesting was that despite the fact that prostitution is legal, am I correct in that there is no porn that's manufactured in Portugal?
[00:29:07] Speaker C: No, actually that's a very interesting subject, because I remember when I was a kid and growing in the late seventies, early eighties, I remember that I could see in small towns the cinemas with pornographic movies at Tuesdays and romantic movies for women at Wednesdays and child movies at Sundays. And you could see the pictures of the porn with the romantic movie, with adventure movie Saturdays, the shark movie and movies for porn. There were very big cinemas for porn until very recently, before the Internet. You could see the porn magazines being sold side by side with women's magazines and respectable journals.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: Right?
[00:30:21] Speaker C: So there was never a big deal production, but there was not really a big distress with porn.
[00:30:31] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:30:32] Speaker C: Nowadays it's becoming an issue, not so much because of porn itself, but because the availability of online porn.
[00:30:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:30:46] Speaker C: And what is doing to young men, to adolescents, to children that spend all their time looking at porn. So this is becoming actually an issue many people are worried about, but it's the online porn, in the accessibility, availability of online porn, not the porn, it is itself.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: Okay, that makes sense. That makes sense. So what kinds of issues are you. I mean, I assume it's similar to what we're seeing here, but of course, I don't want to make too many assumptions. What kinds of issues are you seeing in Portugal that come. That are coming about? Because, you know, teens are on porn and the accessibility. What kinds of problems do you see as a sexologist?
[00:31:28] Speaker C: Well, there is actually. There is the concern that people will be increasingly less able to form relationships and spend their lives masturbating.
Actually, there is this concept. There have been recently, portuguese newspapers made a lot of attention to studies that show that sex frequency is decreasing. So I know that there are studies in large representative samples in the United States and in Germany that actually show those trends that in the last 20 years, sex is decreasing.
I always show that to my students. I do not know studies in Portugal about death, but I know that people do not get surprised with it.
[00:32:30] Speaker B: Yeah. People are having their first sexual experiences later.
[00:32:34] Speaker C: Yeah. And when someone tries to guess, to guess an explanation, to have an explanation.
Technologies Internet come as the immediate explanation. We still do not have it, do not have evidence that it is what actually is making this decrease in sex frequency. But there is a temporal coincidence.
[00:33:06] Speaker B: Yep, yep. Correlation for sure. It sounds like. Yeah, yeah. Now you do research specifically on, similar to me, on what constitutes almost transcendent sexual experiences. So let's switch gears because that's like on the other side of the spectrum and talk a little bit about what your research is all about, because I'm sure people would love to hear that.
[00:33:32] Speaker C: Yeah. But just let me, before going into transcendence, okay, just let me to stress another point. Actually, my research is also about what excessive use of smartphones, social networks.
All this is relating to sex frequency and sexual functioning. And let me tell you, Emily, this looks a taboo topic.
As far as I know, there is only one scientific paper on the relationship between excessive use and social networks and sexual functioning in women in Iran.
[00:34:24] Speaker B: Really? I'm surprised to hear that with how prevalent use it.
[00:34:28] Speaker C: Yeah. It has an english co author which is one of the pioneers of the.
Of starting thinking the Internet activities as addictive, like, but it's done in Iran. And I suddenly, I said, there are so many papers published on depression and social networks, anxiety and social networks, and suddenly why there are no papers on sexual functioning and.
And social networking? You can find it. Is it so uncomfortable to talk about this? Are people feeling themselves so involved that they fear to talk about it?
I started doing research on that, and the findings are very much in line with those studying in Iran. So excessive use of social networks and smartphones, which are commonly used for social networks, are indeed correlated with problems with sexual arousal, with pain, very, very frequently with pain in women, and also with the erectile problems in men, young men, in young men. So I think we really need to start paying attention about these new risk factor.
[00:35:55] Speaker B: It is. I agree with you, and I think that's an appropriate way to categorize it as a new risk factor, because, you know, when people are on their phones all the time, they're not connecting with their partner, they're not spending enough time winding down, because they're so highly stimulated by what they're seeing on their screens that it's hard to make that switch into feeling sensual and connected and present in the moment.
But I'm curious, through your research, what, you know, we see this strong relationship. It sounds like. What do you think is at play here? Like, what the social media has a negative effect. Why? What are you finding?
[00:36:36] Speaker C: Well, the iranian study found that loneliness, perceived loneliness, was one of the mediators, was one of the explanatory focus and reduced intimacy, reduced relationship closeness, which can be caused by actually people looking so much to the phones that they are not looking at the partner, but also to an intriguing phenomenon that I'm doing research about it. And there are also some research, especially in China, supporting this, is that excessive use of social networks creates loneliness even in people that are. They have no objective reasons to feel lonely, apparently.
[00:37:26] Speaker B: Perceived loneliness.
[00:37:28] Speaker C: Wow.
[00:37:29] Speaker B: I mean, that is powerful. But social networks make us feel so lonely that we're not able to connect with our partners who are right there.
[00:37:38] Speaker C: Yeah, that's the point. That could be one thing.
Other thing that I'm doing research about is on the possibility of too much use of technologies being reducing intraoceptive awareness.
[00:37:57] Speaker B: Can you tell people what that means?
[00:37:59] Speaker C: Well, that's the awareness of your internal sensations.
If we are open to feel pleasure, we need to be open to our internal sensations to feel that pleasure.
So if you lose the attention to your body, if we lose our attention to our bodies, we lose our capacity to feel our pleasure and pleasure in the moment.
[00:38:29] Speaker B: Yep. Which I think sounds very parallel to what we were talking about. Earlier, what I was looking at in that last paper I did in the relationship with. And we're talking, we're not even talking about sensuality in the moment. We're talking about sensuality in people's day to day lives. You know, how present are you when you're eating lunch in the middle of the work day? Right.
[00:38:51] Speaker C: Yes. And if you lose the intraoceptive awareness, so there is a loss in sensuality because you're not feeling.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Right. Right. The neural pathway, I think, weakens.
[00:39:06] Speaker C: Yeah. So people may still very, very attentive to the world outside, but if they are not attentive to the world inside. And the world inside is not only the world of thoughts, it's also the world of sensations.
And we need these attention to the world of sensations to be sensual.
[00:39:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:31] Speaker C: And this could be also another mechanism by which too much outward attention to smartphones, to online issues might be disturbing. Sexuality.
[00:39:45] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I definitely agree that I think it's a major, major problem. So, and I am, I'm still surprised that there hasn't been more research on this topic.
[00:39:56] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:39:56] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:39:57] Speaker C: Very surprising. Yes.
[00:39:58] Speaker B: For beginning that process. I think it's such an important conversation to have, especially with the younger generations who, you know, at least when I was going through adolescence, there weren't smartphones, there wasn't social media, and we had to date and go out there. But these younger generations don't have to do that anymore. They don't have to. So I'm worried that the, you know, adult pathways may be weakened, but I worry that in the younger generations, they're not even being formed to begin with.
[00:40:26] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:40:27] Speaker B: You know, and that's, that's concerning. So you're looking at that and then, yes, as we're moving further up along the spectrum.
[00:40:35] Speaker C: Okay. Okay. Okay.
And then, of course, as I told you before, I think one of the risks of materialistic liberalism, if I can call it that way.
[00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:40:50] Speaker C: It gives you openness, but at the cost of imagination. And we need to cultivate imagination for good sex. We need sensuality being present, being aware of the world outside and the world inside our sensations, but we also need to be cultivating that spiritual parts. And do you say, I do not remember the word in English, but, well, you can put imagination. So we really need imagination and sex, as I think most people feel it, one a one way or the other, as an element of transcendence.
It has always some way or the other. It has an element of transcendence.
But of course, these transcendence can be cultivated or not.
And I'm actually studying now what kind of aspects of spirituality can contribute for good sex. So it's not that we are totally moved, totally to the opposite side of how we were thinking about spirituality in the past as opposite to the body. Now we want to study what are the aspects of spirituality? Because spirituality is very complex. It has many aspects, some very detached from the world, some very grounded, that contribute to presence. So what are the aspects of spirituality? Because this opens the mind and imaginary to what is greatest than us.
[00:42:55] Speaker B: Right. And I think so many people hear the word spirituality and they think religion, but that's not what we're talking about at all.
Kind of that. That some is greater than the parts.
[00:43:08] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. It's something great, something big, something great, eternal.
[00:43:15] Speaker B: But what are you finding? How can people begin to cultivate that in their relationships? Because I think if people felt that they would want to have sex more, they would feel more sexually satisfied, more connected. So what are you looking at? How can people cultivate that?
[00:43:32] Speaker C: I think they can cultivate that entering in meditative states, for example, mindfulness.
I think it's a very, very good way to start cultivating interceptive awareness on one side, but also kind of absorb the tension that makes you be very, very focused on what's happening in your imagination. Very open to what happens in your imagination.
[00:44:13] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:15] Speaker C: I also study the effects of autogenic training, which is basically a very simple self hypnosis exercise that helps people to be aware of their internal sensations.
But it's possible. I'm studying that. I do not have yet data, but I think it's very possible that it opens the imaginary.
Imaginary also this openness to what is greater.
[00:44:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yep. And I'm a big proponent of that, too. I think the more we exercise this mental, emotional, spiritual muscle outside the bedroom, the easier it is to access that inside the bedroom. Because if it's not happening in day to day life, if you're not practicing, whether it's mindfulness or, you know, some, like this autogenic hypnosis that you're describing or just focusing for half an hour at a time without multitasking, how can you expect to do that during sex? Yes.
[00:45:23] Speaker C: And I'm also doing research on defects on consciousness of drinking a moderate dose of red wine.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: Okay. I like where you can advise this to some.
[00:45:38] Speaker C: Perhaps you can advise this to some people, not to others.
A bit more careful about these things.
But, of course, if you have a good moment with a glass, moderate dose of red wine, you can also have an openness to a transcendent states. If you allow yourself to do that, and I'm now having research supporting that, you can.
Being in a nice restaurant, drinking a nice glass of wine with some food can be a way for transcendence.
I published a preprint this week, a paper on that.
[00:46:22] Speaker B: Oh, you did?
[00:46:23] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:46:23] Speaker B: Okay. You heard it here first here. You heard it first here, everybody. Right? A little bit of red wine can go a long way, help you get to that state of transcendence. I like your research, and I think people here are going to like that as well. So let's wrap up for today. I am so thankful that you joined me today. I think this conversation was awesome. I learned a lot, and I know other people are going to learn a lot, too. How can people follow you if they want to stay up to date on your research? Because I think you're doing a lot of interesting work right now. How can people stay up to date?
[00:47:04] Speaker C: Well, they can put my name in Google Scholar. Usually my publications appear so they can also look for William James center for Research.
[00:47:18] Speaker B: William James center for Research yes, William.
[00:47:21] Speaker C: James, which is in Lisbon. It has the name of that very famous pioneer of american psychology and which was also a pioneer of interceptive awareness and the pioneer of spirituality was the first man to give scientific attention to spirituality, to mythical states.
[00:47:43] Speaker B: Ah, there you go. So you're at the Wright Research Institute?
[00:47:46] Speaker C: Yes. Very interesting. William James. And so I work in William James center for Research in Lisbon. So if you also search for that, you will find my page there, my email and my recent publications.
[00:48:01] Speaker B: Awesome. Thank you so, so much. I'd love to stay in touch and hopefully meet you in person when I make it back over to Portugal someday.
[00:48:12] Speaker C: Okay?
[00:48:13] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:48:14] Speaker C: You're welcome.
[00:48:15] Speaker B: Okay, thanks, everybody.
[00:48:17] Speaker A: Thank you so much for tuning in to today's episode of Sex and Love with me, doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to, like, subscribe and share with a friend or partner. I release an episode every other Monday. You can find me on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok. Emilyjamia if you and your partner are struggling with emotional and sexual intimacy, check out my online workshop, available at www.emilyjamia.com. see you guys next time on sex and love.
