Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Would most people look at your relationship and assume everything is fine? Maybe you and your partner are high functioning, all things considered, but there is a thorn in the side of the relationship that is preventing you from fully thriving in love. Old resentments, relationship betrayals and unfilled trauma can prevent relationships from reaching their full emotional and erotic potential, which is the topic of today's episode. I'm joined by sex and trauma expertise and now psychedelic retreat facilitator, Doctor Holly Richmond. Let's get to know our guest. Doctor Holly Richmond is a somatic psychotherapist, licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist and supervisor. In addition to sex therapy and co facilitating international sexual health retreats, Doctor Holly sits on the clinical board of directors for Dame products and is the associate director of modern Sex Therapy Institutes. Her book, reclaiming a Sex Positive Guide for moving past Sexual Trauma and living a passionate life, is an innovative look at both somatic and psychological factors in survivors erotic recovery. Her practice also includes expert witness and consultancy work in large civil cases for survivors of sexual trauma. Doctor Holly is regularly quoted in media outlets including the New York Times, CNN, Netflix, Womens Health and mens Health. She is a sought after consultant in the sex tech industry and is seen as a pioneer in the exploration of the intersection of sex and technology. Without further ado, let's dive in.
[00:01:34] Speaker B: Doctor Holly Richmond, welcome to the show.
[00:01:37] Speaker C: Oh, thank you, Emily. I'm so happy to be here.
[00:01:40] Speaker B: Thank you. I am so happy to have you. I have so many questions for you because you do so many things. You have written the latest book on healing after sexual trauma and in addition to the material in the book, you leave workshops and retreats and you do expert witness like you just do so much as it relates to sexual trauma. And I think there's a lot to discuss. So before we get into all of that though, I'd love to learn a little bit more about you and how you got into the field.
[00:02:10] Speaker C: Oh, thank you. And thank you again for having me on. I've been such a fan of yours for years now. So it's just such a pleasure to meet and be here with you. So the short version of it is, I was a journalist for my 1st 15 years in the world as an adult and read a book in probably 2004 that really changed my life. It was called True Notebooks by Mark Salzman and he was a journalist and he went into boys detention facilities in Los Angeles and started teaching creative writing. And just the beautiful evolutions that came out of that, I was just blown away. So I was living in just outside of LA at the time, a little north, and I decided I was going to do that, but in women's detention facilities. So I called around like back in the day when, you know, was phones and someone was like, you want to come teach here? I was like, I do. So I started teaching creative writing in a women's detention facility and of course got story after story of sexual trauma, gang rape, sexual abuse, sexual assault, date rape. And I had no tools at the time, of course, I didn't know how to do anything about it, so the market crashed. In 2008, publishing took a huge downturn and I went back to school and got my master's in clinical psychology, my PhD, and I clinical psychology with a focus in somatic psychology and my certification in sex therapy.
[00:03:32] Speaker B: Amazing. I did not know that about you. What an interesting route that you took to get to where you are. And I always think it's interesting when there is a component to one story about storytelling because so much of the work we do as therapists is listening to and interpreting people's stories. And I think when you have a background in writing, whatever that may be, that you're able to work with clients in kind of a unique way.
[00:04:02] Speaker C: I just love it so much and it's constantly the weaving together and the making connections that they can't do for themselves. Nor could I. Like it takes a therapist to really have that objective perspective, to connect some of those thoughts for us and figure out what are the patterns I keep repeating here.
[00:04:17] Speaker B: Right, right. And, you know, helping people through recovery from sexual trauma and assault is nothing new. But I think the type of interventions that we have now at our disposal as clinicians has come such a long way from the traditional talk therapy approaches. And you do a lot of somatic work. Can you talk a little bit about what that is and how you implement it in your work with clients?
[00:04:44] Speaker C: Sure. So I realized pretty quickly that the talk therapy, like, I just felt stuck. So I did most of my 3000 hours at the Santa Barbara rape crisis center and I was just like, okay, I was taught very well how to treat trauma. I had a wonderful mentor there, but I was like, what's next? Like, where no one has told me what comes next? And then. So for me, the somatic aspect came in because I know what's hurting the body has to be healed through the body. I'm a huge somaticizer and didn't really have a handle on that until, well, through my PhD program.
But for anyone who's listening, a somaticizer, to me, is really anyone whose body leads before their brain does. So my body was screaming at me for a year, hey, ladies, something's wrong. Something's wrong. And I. You know, you just kind of keep pushing through until you can't, and then things click together. Integration is the fancy word that we say for that, you know, when our mind and body is on the same page, and things just feel so much better.
So I knew that the body played such a huge role in healing from sexual trauma, and then I knew what has to come after is some form of pleasure. I didn't know anything about sexuality at that time. Emily, you know, we get, like, 8 hours, 16, if we're lucky, in our master's program of sex therapy, sex education. So that's where I was like, okay, I need my sex therapy certification. So added another 300 hours onto that and just really love the combination. And. And to be honest, just for the listeners, I would say sexual trauma is probably 60% of my work these days. But it also became very clear to me after getting the sex therapy certification that having a little bit more levity in my practice was important as well. So I see couples with typical couples issues. I do kicks and erectile function, pain during sex, all kinds of things. Non monogamy, just because sexual trauma can be heavy. I love it. It is my heart, and I love doing the work, but there's a balance as well.
[00:06:44] Speaker B: I totally agree. And I always tell people, I get a lot of inquiries from people wanting to go into the field of sex therapy, and they're asking about my path or what steps they should take. And I always tell people that I just don't think you can be a really effective sex therapist unless you also have training and trauma, and ideally in couples work, too. I think you need that. And I'm with you. I used to do a lot of sexual trauma, and it became harder for me after I had my own kids, and I had to kind of take a step back and take a break and rebalance my caseload a little bit. And I think that's in part what led to, you know, the book that I have coming out, because it's all about helping people really experience optimal sex and pleasure on the really high end of the spectrum. But, you know, for most people, that can't happen until you heal those deeper wounds. So it all ties together.
[00:07:38] Speaker C: It does. It does. And I can't wait to offer your book as a resource. So let's get that out of yes.
[00:07:45] Speaker B: So, what would you say was missing from traditional trauma approaches, specifically as it relates to sex. You mentioned that you noticed when you were working at this rape crisis center that there wasn't enough of an emphasis on pleasure and rebuilding those pleasure pathways. Like, was that the missing piece for you? Or what else would you say was missing from traditional approaches?
[00:08:07] Speaker C: I mean, I guess in two words, sex positivity.
Like the sexual trauma lens, it's steeped in shame for the survivor. So first of all, most people are. Survivors are going to walk in feeling like they did something wrong. And as soon as I can reframe that and really the blame gets put on the perpetrator talking about the arousal non concordance. So even if they were touched on consensually, they could have still had some kind of pleasure out of that, whether it was physical or relational.
And then really looking at how do we reframe sex in a sex positive light? So let's say that they've brought some kinks, fetishes, or certain proclivities with them that were informed by trauma, like really parsing that out so that we can either put it down and leave, that they don't want to touch it again, or we can integrate that into their healthy sexual expression.
[00:09:02] Speaker B: I love that. And just for people listening who don't know or understand what arousal non concordance is, which is a term you just mentioned, what you're feeling emotionally or psychologically as it relates to what's happening to you doesn't align with what's happening physically to you. So women experience this a lot, where the body will respond in a way that may indicate some feelings of pleasure or arousal, even though on a psychological or mental plane, you are not into it at all, which is obviously what most people experience when they're experiencing a sexual assault, or they can have that dissociative reaction, but the body still responds as if it's associating to what happens, what's happening. And that's usually a survival mechanism. The body is lubricating itself so that pain is minimized. And that's really confusing for women because they feel like there was this element of positivity that was happening during the assault when they obviously didn't want it.
[00:09:58] Speaker C: Exactly. And then, Emily, on the flip side of that, let's say it's 20 years later and they're in a safe, committed relationship and they go to have sex with their partner, and their brain is like, yes, I'm all in. I want to connect with this man. And their body is like a no go. I'm not going to lubricate. And maybe I even have vaginismus or dyspernia. Like, nothing's entering here without pain. So it can go both ways.
[00:10:22] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:10:23] Speaker C: Simple way to say the mind and body just are not on the same.
[00:10:26] Speaker B: Page, not integrated, as you said earlier. So you wrote a book called Reclaiming Pleasure. And can you talk about a little bit about the protocol that you include in that book just so that people have an idea of what to expect when they pick it up, if they're trying to work through their own sexual trauma?
[00:10:43] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. And the book, reclaiming pleasure, came from my dissertation. So this is not things that I've just decided are true. This was a qualitative, grounded theory research study that I did at the rape crisis center, and I really found three key factors in survivor's recovery. The first is control. And I know that probably sounds self evident. Of course, survivors want to have control of their situation, who they're with, but control is two pronged. So there's maintaining control and there's relinquishing control. And the relinquishing control is really where the work is. So how do we help our brain and our body to relax into a situation that is safe and consensual?
The second piece of that is pleasure, and this is. Emily. So much of the work you do, so really looking at their sexual template, which I break down into desire and arousal. So what turns me on and what do I find sexy? So the psychological process of wanting and the physiological process of wanting. So many people, especially women, have never even considered what they like in bed. Like, everything has just been pleasing my partner, pleasing my partner, or how do I keep myself safe? How do I dissociate? How do I get this over with quickly? So the pleasure component there just really unpacks. That's what we like, what turns us on. And the third factor is connection.
And this is really the work. This is where. How do we co create sexual experiences? How do we connect to ourselves deeply with the trauma, with things that we now know we prefer? How do we connect to community? How do we connect to family? How do we let that empathy really permeate our system and feel safe and included in the world?
[00:12:28] Speaker A: I just launched tons, tons of awesome bonuses on my website. People who purchase just one copy of my new book, Anatomy of Desire get things like the intimacy discussion deck, a deck of 52 cards with questions designed to deepen connection. And the 30 day intimacy challenge, a calendar with daily exercises designed to deepen connection and expand your erotic horizons. You get access to my masterclass and so much more by purchasing Anatomy of desire, you get access to nearly $300 worth of bonuses. I've got a pleasure playlist. I've got a desire summit. I've got an unlocking masculine and feminine desires webinar. I mean, the list goes on and on. Visit emilyjamia.com for all the details.
[00:13:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I love that. I mean, all of those three prongs make a lot of sense to me. You know, coming back to this notion of control, one thing I always tell people is I'm not of the mind that control and surrender are mutually exclusive. I think that they are dependent upon each other. Like the analogy I always give as a snow skiing analogy, I cannot surrender to the experience of skiing down the mountain unless I am in control of myself as I'm cutting across the snow. Like, if I throw myself onto a black, that makes me feel out of control, and I cannot surrender. And so you have to. I think, as it relates to sex and specifically recovering from sexual trauma, it's putting yourself into a relationship with someone. And this is the connections component for you. I'm assuming, that gives you a sense of safety, that you feel that you can control the experience in as much as you can assert your sexual needs, your desires. Speak up about what feels good, what doesn't feel good. That's the kind of control that we're talking about, not the over control that inhibits surrender.
[00:14:19] Speaker C: Yes. Beautifully, beautifully said. So the container is safe, and within the container, we can surrender to specific experiences.
[00:14:26] Speaker B: Yes, yes. And then coming back to the element of connection, I think that what gives us strength is our connection with other people. And I think this is a bit tangential, but I think that's missing a little bit from the whole self care model. One thing I don't love about the emphasis on self care is the focus on the self apart from others. I think one of the best things we can do to nourish ourself is to have stronger relationships with other people. And so I love that you include that in your work.
[00:14:56] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. I wish that we could heal in isolation. There's so many of my. The people that I work with, we get to the connection part, and they're like, I know I can do it myself. And I'm like, I know you can do it yourself. And that's been part of the problem. It doesn't work that way. Like, there has to be some connection. And I'm not saying you have to be in a long term, committed romantic relationship, but there has to be some connection with community, whether that's family, friends, religion, spirituality, the local shelter. It's something where you are seen and validated for you.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Right, right. I mean, I think that's what keeps us grounded. How do you include work with partners as part of this process?
[00:15:39] Speaker C: Yeah. So sometimes I will work directly. The couple will be my client and one would be a survivor and will work that way. Or more frequently, I'm working with the survivor and the partner joins us probably once every six to eight weeks. And I will prescribe a version of sensate focus or I will prescribe just different somatically based experiences. And for the most part, my client could take that homework to their partner and explain it just fine. But sometimes it's better just if I get a little drop in from the partner again every 68 weeks.
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And you've extended this work now into couples retreats? And not just any couples retreats. There's a psychedelic element. So can you talk a little bit about that? Because that is like the new thing.
[00:16:28] Speaker C: It's been really fun. So the medicine I work with is called five meo dmts. This is not one that's going to be legal anytime soon, probably ever. It's really as far as a powerful psychedelic. It's at the top of the food chain and it has to be done in a very safe setting. So this medicine found me. I went to Mexico and experienced it at a retreat center. It's called Tondava, just two of the most informed experts with five meo in the world.
Five meo really pushes on that control, the maintaining and relinquishing control button. It's a very fast acting, short duration medicine, unlike ayahuasca or psilocybin. Like, if you came to me and said, holly, you're going to feel out of control for four to six to 8 hours, I've been like, hell no, I am not doing that. There is absolutely no way. I cannot tolerate being out of control. And that's going to be most survivors with I'm Meo. You're in and out in 40 minutes. And when I say you're out, you are on the ground, everything is normal, like you are back. And within that time, if dosed right and right conditions, you can have an ego death and really just experience neuroplasticity and a rewriting of the story in incredibly powerful ways.
[00:17:43] Speaker B: Amazing.
[00:17:45] Speaker C: I need to bring survivors here. And then, because I just told you, I don't just do sexual trauma work, I was like, wouldn't this be sexy too? Let's just bring couples here for like a sexy retreat?
[00:17:56] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:17:57] Speaker C: Last September I did two back to back. I did five day survivors retreat just for women. And then a five day couples retreat that was all about sex and tantra and connection and just deepening, you know, healing old wounds for some of them. But it really wasn't about trauma. It was really just about deepening connection and pleasure.
[00:18:14] Speaker B: And are you using the five meo in the couples retreat as well? And what is its function in that context?
[00:18:20] Speaker C: Yeah, there we use it as well. So of the five day retreat container, two days are medicine days. It just lifts the veil of all of the outdated and rupture kind of informed dynamics that a couple has been going through. It's just been going with a very low dose. So you're not, you know, you're still very present. You're just soft and you can see your partner again for who they are without all the stories that you loaded on. And because the medicine does promote neuroplasticity with integration after the medicine and you get four weeks of an integration specialist assigned to you, you just really have a chance to redo things that perhaps have been broken or find that spark for your sexuality again. Because I run a workshop every day of the retreat and send people off to the rooms at night with really sexy homework.
[00:19:10] Speaker A: The anatomy of Desire audiobook is finally here and I am so excited to offer you a sneak peek. Listen up for a 42nd preview. If you like what you hear, be sure to order it on audible or wherever you listen to audiobooks. And don't forget, audiobook purchases are also eligible for all the free bonuses on my website. Visit anatomyofdesire.com after completing your purchase. For all the details, enjoy the sample.
I started paying closer attention to the language my clients were using to describe the sex. They wanted to words like effortless, absorbed, and electric stood out.
They wanted to feel lost in the moment, forgetting their woes and insecurities.
I spent hours poring over client notes, going back through sessions in my head, and listening to people with the larger questions in mind.
What were we all searching for in the erotic realm? And was it realistically possible to attain?
And then it clicked. They wanted to experience a state of flow.
[00:20:20] Speaker B: Ooh, that's exciting. And so I, you know, I'm familiar, obviously, with the push towards psychedelics being included in interventions for all kinds of psychological issues. But I was not familiar with five meo. And I have to say, it's appealing to me that it's short acting, because one of the reasons I haven't done any kind of psychological intervention myself is because, like you, I just don't like the idea of being out of control for four to 6 hours.
[00:20:48] Speaker C: I'm like, no, that. There's nothing about that. That sounds fun to me.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: I know, I know, but I know people love it and they can be highly effective for the right person. But I'm still just a little bit scared. But I don't know, this is kind of picking my curiosity. So the medicine, you say, I guess it sounds like it's dose, depending on what the individual or couple needs. Like, you can do a really low dose and nothing necessarily have a trip, but at a higher dose, you would have more of. Yeah, okay.
[00:21:14] Speaker C: Yeah. More of the ego really depends on what you want. With the couples, we did lower doses because, again, it wasn't about rewriting big stories. It was just about deepening the connection. And finally, for pleasure.
[00:21:29] Speaker B: Very cool. I love that. So can you talk a little bit more about how these opening to Eros retreats have helped some of the couples that you've worked with? Like, what kinds of outcomes have you seen?
[00:21:39] Speaker C: It's been pretty powerful so far. In two of the couples there, there had been infidelity, and the infidelity had happened 510 years ago, but there was just that, like, tinge of resentment and distrust and anger sitting there. And the medicine just really helps that to move through. So the person who has been harmed can say all the things that they need to say without their partner getting defensive or reactive. Like, their partner can finally just soften and be empathetic with them, and then that's typically what they need. Another couple, their baby had died at five months old, and that had been ten years prior. And they thought, like, we have really worked through this and healed.
There were just elements that they just couldn't really touch the grief. I don't know how you could, but the medicine just kind of brought them into a container together where they could sit with the grief and each other's experiences around that.
[00:22:33] Speaker B: Interesting. Wow.
[00:22:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:35] Speaker B: And I think that's what in my work with couples is. I think about what kinds of issues make them feel stuck. A lot of times it is these older, deep seated thorns in their side, and it's usually from some kind of relationship betrayal or old resentment or anger or in this case, grief that just hasn't moved out. And that can be really challenging for couples to move past. And so I love that you have this intervention to help them. I think it sounds really cool.
[00:23:05] Speaker C: Yeah. Yeah. And just to reiterate, these are not high conflict couples. So that was one of my parameters. If you are in active conflict, this is not the retreat for you. So these couples, everything, their daily lives functioned fine, and you would look at them and say, that's a healthy couple. But obviously they were in therapy or coaching with me. So there were just these little underlying issues that I really felt strongly that the medicine could help with.
[00:23:30] Speaker B: Yeah, very cool. So, as I said at the beginning of this interview, you do a lot, and I know we've only scratched the surface, but one element of sex that you are kind of an expert in is biotech and technology. And I would love for you to talk a little bit about what you see on the horizon as it relates to technology and sex, because on the one hand, I want to stay positive and optimistic, but I will admit I'm a little more nervous and scared for what's out there than anything else. So can you talk a little bit about what we have currently and what's coming up and how we should feel about it?
[00:24:09] Speaker C: Yeah. And please know I'm not like, all sex tech is good sex tech. It's not, and it's a bridge. I mean, technology is here to stay. And I just. When I started studying sex tech back in 2016, I was like, I've got to figure out how to help my clients work with this instead of asking them to put it down and not use it. So on one end of the spectrum, we've got our incels kind of in the middle. We've got our digisexuals. So a digisexual is someone whose primary sexuality is mediated by technology. So they're going to be our younger people, typically, who feel most comfortable meeting someone on a dating app or online, getting to know them through technology, and then moving into the real world.
So those are really the spaces I'm looking at. So I help companies with designing sex toys and just things that I feel like people would need. I've done some docu series around sex bots and how they can work. So I utilized a sex bot named Harmony with an adult virgin. He was, I think, close to 30, and he never even kissed a woman or held her hand. So we use the robot again as a bridge to get him comfortable touching, kissing. You could have sex with this robot. My client did not. There are some downsides, of course. If it just stays here, like, and I'm holding my hands in front of my face, if it just stays here in front of us on a device, it's not great. So I guess my offer is just for a lot of people with our. What's the word I'm looking for? Our social skills are not advancing the way they used to pre technology.
For a lot of people, they just need that little bridge from here in my hand out into. Out into the real world.
[00:25:55] Speaker B: Okay. That makes me feel better about it, to think of it as a bridge. And, you know, to hear that you're encouraging clients to think of it that way, too, because, you know, I am such a proponent, obviously, I think, of just being in person as much as possible, and I'm so scared for the younger, you know, up and coming generations that they are doing so much online, and we're already seeing the negative effect. I mean, kids are not having sex as much as they used to. Age of first sexual experience is increasing, which I know a lot of people listening this might think that's a good thing, but it's actually not, you know, but to your point, I can also see some benefits, that this can be kind of one of a few stepping stones to help people ultimately get back out there into the real world.
[00:26:40] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So I think because of the Internet, too, we have more access to sex education and sex positivity. So I hope that, to me, I'm like, gosh, I hope a reason that young people are having less sex than any generation in recorded history is because they're not like me, who just had sex because I was supposed to, because it was the thing to do back then. But again, all the pleasure was about my partner. I hope young women today are like, yeah, I don't really want to sleep with him. And that wasn't. It's not going to be good for me, so I'm not doing it. Yeah, please let that be the reason.
[00:27:16] Speaker B: Yes. Yes. And I think I was just interviewing someone else on sex education programs among adolescents, and he raised that point as well, that probably. Probably one of the reasons why the age of first sexual experiences is increasing is because women now feel like they can say no, which maybe they didn't beforehand. And that is a good thing.
But I think a lot of it. Yeah, but I think a lot of it also has to do with technology, which concerns me, too. And I worry also just that the dopamine we get from a sexual experience can't compete to the dopamine people are getting from how many likes they got on an Instagram post or from the dopamine they get from, like, a virtual reality sexual experience. Like, what is your opinion on that? Do you, do you have any sense of what the differences are in terms of what effect technology is having on the brain when we attach sex to it.
[00:28:11] Speaker C: Yeah, I think for some people, it's not great, and they really do get stuck in the technology loop. Feedback. However, I would say most of the clients I work with, they want to be out there doing the thing with real people, but there's such social anxiety, which is caused by technology for the most part, because they just have not had to practice.
[00:28:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:28:32] Speaker C: To me, like social media and technology, it takes the edge off our need to connect, our need to be in community, because we're like, well, we're here. I'm in this Facebook community that just takes the edge off my need, and I can skate through for a while. Usually for most people, that wears off, and they're like, gosh, I'm really missing that real world experience. And then they're like, I have no tools to meet people in the wild. And that's when I find them in my office. Or your office.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Awesome. Well, in addition to all of this other stuff, you are also associate director of modern Sex Therapy Institute. So can you talk a little bit about that and your role over there?
[00:29:10] Speaker C: Yes. And that's just been such fun. And Doctor Rachel Needle, the co director there, has just. She's been a wonderful colleague of mine for ten years now.
We just have been working together to create curriculum. So we created a sexual trauma certification, and it's a 70 hours trauma certification that will really give anyone, any clinicians out there. If you want to beef up on sexual trauma, it's a great cert. And then a somatic sex therapy certification we created as well, a neurodivergent.
There's just really helping Rachel build the faculty and create new certifications to kind of keep up with all of the changes that we're seeing in the field.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And shout out to Rachel, we love you.
Yeah, she's so great. She's been a good friend of mine for a long time as well, and her institute, I think, is really quality, and I'm just impressed with all the work she's put into it, too. So if you're a clinician out there listening, definitely check it out.
[00:30:09] Speaker C: Yes, yes. If you're interested in your sex therapy certification or a PhD in clinical sexology, that's the place to get it.
[00:30:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Holly, thank you so much for joining me today. I mean, you are such a wealth of information, you do so many things, and I'm so interested to hear more about your retreats. And I'm sure people out there listening are as well. So can you tell people where they can learn more about you? Find your book and find out information about these retreats?
[00:30:37] Speaker C: Absolutely. Yeah. So my website is probably going to be the best resource. And that's just doctor hollyrichman.com dash o dash richmond.com and then Instagram and Facebook. Rhollyrichmond Dr. Hollyrichmand and please, you can dm me, you can email me through my website. I'll be excited to hear and I'll point you to the retreats or to client work. So I do therapy and coaching nationally and internationally. Awesome.
[00:31:10] Speaker B: And I'll be sure to link everything in the show notes so it's easy to find. Holly, thanks again for joining me and I look forward to staying in touch.
[00:31:18] Speaker C: Thank you.
[00:31:18] Speaker A: Emily thanks again for listening to love in Libido with me, your host, doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and drop me a five star review. Positive ratings help keep the show going. Don't forget to visit emilyjamia.com to see how you can access dozens of free bonuses when you purchase my new book, Anatomy of Desire, currently available everywhere books are sold. Additionally, you can follow me across all the social media channels. Remilyjamia thank you for listening.
