Mapping Your Pleasure Profile

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I think as women especially, we are a little more mysterious. I think men have easier access to pleasure, but women have to understand that. What do you need mentally to prepare? What do you like physically? I mean, we're not all the same. We're not wired the same. We're literally physically different, you know, differently. So what is it that turns you on? What is it that helps you connect to self? And then are you willing to share that with a partner? If you have a partner? [00:00:26] Speaker B: Sexual desire remains one of the most common, yet complex issues that sex therapists treat. How do you maintain passion in long term relationships? Is it possible to have hot monogamy despite the monotony of day to day life? What does pleasure have to do with desire? What can heterosexual couples learn from lesbians about desire and pleasure? Let's just say we have a lot to discuss today. I'm joined by Doctor Jen Kennedy, a clinical sexologist and licensed marriage and family therapist based in Santa Barbara. In 2023, doctor Jen launched the Pleasure Project, which is dedicated to helping us all have a better sex life. Through this venture, Doctor Jen hosts a podcast called the Pleasure Project with Doctor Jen Kennedy, and she offers original articles as well. A small group intensives for women and couples called the Pleasure Circle. Without further ado, let's dive in. Doctor Jen Kennedy, welcome to the show. [00:01:22] Speaker A: Thank you. It's good to be here. [00:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm so happy to have you. You know, when we were going back and forth over email discussing what topics to cover today, we landed on Desire. Because at the end of the day, we are both sex therapists. We both know that Desire remains one of the most complex, yet common issues that people deal with, especially when they come into sex therapy. Desire is multifaceted. It can be elusive. It can ebb and flow. So let's get into it because there is so much around desire to unpack, and it's my favorite topic. So I think we'll have a lot to discuss. Before we do, though, I would love to hear a little bit about you and how you got into the field and ultimately how you narrowed your focus in the area of pleasure and desire. Sure. [00:02:13] Speaker A: Yeah. So I went to grad school kind of later in life. I had already done two other careers. I was in public relations for a couple years, and then I went back to school and did a degree in photography, worked as a freelance photographer and writer. And then I sort of segued because I had sort of been holding this as something I'd always wanted to do. Something big happened in my life and I was like, okay, now's the time. It's now or never. I'm gonna do it. And I knew when I got into this work that it was for couples. Like, I really wanted to see couples. That was always my interest and my focus. And as I started working with couples, sex came up as a big topic. You know, obviously, people come in a lot of times through the door of saying, communication, support, or they want to just, you know, help their relationship in a more general way. But sex is this thing that's sort of in the background always. And sometimes it gets named overtly, and sometimes it's sort of waiting to, like, be brought up when there's enough safety. And so as I started to kind of get closer to, you know, what's my area, I realized that sex is really interesting. I love couples in general, and I definitely see couples that are not just focused on sex, but as part of that just desire, you know, and specifically in long term relationships, obviously, the short term ones are pretty. It's pretty easy to feel desire, but as you've been together for 10, 20, 30 years, you know, keeping that interest there, not just the respect, but the interest. And that. That desire piece, I think, is really fascinating. [00:03:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, it's what I'm writing a book about, and it's the focus of my work as well. So I'd love to hear from you. What do you think is the biggest reason why desire fades in long term relationships? If you had to pin it down, what would it be? [00:04:02] Speaker A: Think it fades because of familiarity. I think that there is. You know, we have proximity. Like, we're in the same space, we know each other. We think we can predict even who the other person is, and so we stop seeing each other. It's like the art in my house. Like, if it stays in the same place for ten years, I don't even register it there. But if I move it around, I'm like, oh, you know, and I feel like that person in your life, if there's just the same routine, the same actions over and over, you have sex in the same place in the same way. [00:04:33] Speaker B: Monotony. [00:04:34] Speaker A: It just. The brain's like, meh. I find that just conflate it to novelty. But, like, I do see that. Yeah, it's the repetition that starts to breed the boredom, that starts to breathe the ambivalence and kind of like, meh. [00:04:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I love the analogy you gave with your art. Like, I was thinking about when you wear the same perfume forever. Like, you can leave the house and be like, wait, did I put my perfume on? And then because you're so used to it, you don't even smell it on yourself anymore. And then you pass someone in the street and they're like, oh, you smell really nice. So, yeah, definitely. I think the more familiar and used to something we are, the less we notice it. And, you know, I think if kind of along the lines of what you're saying, if I had to really pin down, probably the most common reason, I think it would be complacency, which goes along with what you've just described. It's stopping, taking the time, energy and attention required to find our partners interesting and to create interest within the relationship. I think that people get kind of lazy and, yeah, getting into a predictable routine can feel easy. I mean, there's a sense of, obviously, safety and predictability and comfort and predictability, but it doesn't always do the best to breed hot sex and desire because, you know, I think a lot of people, when they think of sex in long term relationships, they think of aging and going through menopause and the effect that that can have specifically on female libido, you know, but I'll tell people, I have worked with plenty of divorced 50, 60 something years old who are feeling very sexual, very horny, ready to get back out there. I don't think it really has anything to do with that. Of course, that can take a toll for some people. But it is such a small piece of the puzzle. [00:06:16] Speaker A: I mean, it's like so many things where if you think you're going to go and just, I don't know, do the same thing that you've always done versus if you're going and there's something exciting that's waiting on the other side for you, which is a divorcee. Right? Like getting out there again and, you know, maybe having dinner with a new person or wearing, like, fun lingerie underneath your dress or, you know, there's any sort of element that tickles, like that sort of piece of you that's kind of curious and playful and a little bit excited because there's mystery or there's not a complete guarantee of the outcome that is thrilling to the mind. [00:06:48] Speaker B: Exactly. And when something is thrilling to the mind, it translates usually to excitement in the bedroom. What I like to remind people, too, is that most individuals evolve with time. Our preferences change, our interests grow. But a lot of couples stop being curious about what those interests and preferences or ideas or beliefs are. And rather than asking the question like, hey, do you still think the same way about a, b, or c that you did when we were in our early twenties. Like, they just kind of assume that we think and feel the same way. And I think it would behoove couples to not just create novelty in the bedroom, which that goes a long way, but also to maintain a sense of interest and curiosity about our partners, partners on a day to day basis, like, you know, caring what went on for them at the office that day, but also on a deeper emotional basis. I think couples can discover a lot when they spend time reevaluating their value system, their belief system, their mission as a couple. Like, those kinds of conversations, I think, add a lot of excitement and fire to the relationship, and I'd be curious to hear your thoughts. [00:08:00] Speaker A: So, as you say those things, I'm like, those are, like, strong relational tenants, but they're not sexy necessarily. Right. I feel like, and a lot of my longer term couples have respect for each other. They know each other. They probably have similar values. They have a lot of respect. But the special sauce is sort of the, that we're trying to get out for. Desire is more like the want, right. And so I do think some of those things are helpful, but also, like, can they, can they be just disruptive a little bit in fun ways? Can they be flirtatious? Can they be delighting? Like, delight somehow? Like bring, you know, bring a gift or bring a. Do something out of the usual? Because, again, the brain's like, oh, you know. So I do this exercise with my couple sometimes, and also I run a group, just women, and it's sort of an expanded version of Emily Ngoski's sexy context is what she calls it. But I do. I do a much, like, more robust version, but it's really like mining, mining the couple. Mining them for both the turn ons and turn offs. And not just, like, directly, like, sex related, but, like, in your mind, do you like smell? Do you, you know, taste? Do you like, like, what in your environment primes you in general to be receptive as a human, not just sexually receptive, but let's go broader. Yeah, because I sometimes feel like, you know, they're sitting there going, I want to want it, but I don't. So then if we do this broader thing of, like, when are you most receptive? I mean, the negatives are pretty easy for them to access, right? They don't like bad breath or they don't like stress or they don't, you know, all the things that shut them down have to be addressed. But really cultivating the things that enhance, I think, is such a fun exercise. And some people have more access to that, and many people do not. Some people are like, I don't know what I like. [00:09:42] Speaker B: Yeah. What I find a lot of times is that people don't know what they don't know. You know, it's hard to your point, it's easy to sometimes to identify the negative, but not always as simple to discover the positive well. [00:09:53] Speaker A: And they might feel guarded even, especially if they're coming in for sex therapy, because then they're like, well, I don't want to say I like these things because then they're going to be put into motion and I'm going to be expected. But if you can do it in a way that they get curious, they get engaged in the process, I think we can address the negatives, but then start to cultivate the positives. It can feel like there's some movement and there's some hope. Plus, these are just things that make the person generally happier anyway. It's a win win anyway in terms of lifestyle. Because sometimes what I've said is to the couple is, okay, so consciously knowing what that list is for your partner, consciously help facilitate a few of those. You know, if it's like a piping hot cup of coffee in the morning, do that. If it's sensate, focus twice a week, do that. You know what I mean? Like, let's figure out how to help get more of the things that they, that prime them to feel, like, in a good mood and receptive, you know? [00:10:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So I think, too. And this kind of alludes back to what you were saying a moment ago. It's rediscovering that playfulness. You know, when I think about couples who have been together, let's say, for 20 years, they, most likely, when they were younger, had a sense of playfulness. And I'm talking about, like, playful, erotic playfulness, that kind of flirtatiousness, the giggling, the touching, that sort of thing. And then couples have kids, and all of that playful energy gets transferred into energy that's playful in the context of rearing a child. And I think it gets kind of zapped. But then later on, as couples become empty nesters and kids leave the house, it's like, okay, we're older now, but at the end of the day, I think we all have a playful energy within us. And so it's learning how to cultivate that again in a way that translates to that sort of erotic, flirtatious, playful energy. And I'd love to hear your two cent on that. [00:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree that a lot of the folks I see are sixties and seventies. And so having that conversation of, like, where is the playful part of you? It's there. They've got a little spark. They have to have enough safety, first of all. They have to have feel like it matters, and then what's in there. You know, most people have a sense of humor, and they want to feel desire, but they also want to feel desired. They love that receptivity. If they knew that their partner was looking at them in a positive, not just positive way, but like, ooh, you know, like that early feeling, it feels so good to get that. And so when that's on the line, when that is the proposition, I think most of the time people are like, is that even possible to get back to that? Because they do want that. [00:12:20] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, I just want to reiterate what you just said because it is so important. A lot of people come in complaining of low desire, but I say we got to underscore the importance of feeling desired because feeling wanted, feeling like someone is not just interested in the things that you have to say, but also really wanting to share the erotic space together as a couple. Feeling like you still got it, that there's a part of you that's still sexy and your partner wants to tap into that. Like, that feels really good to most people. And so it shouldn't be all about reclaiming personal desire, but also about cultivating a sense of mutual desirability within the relationship, because that feels amazing, too, knowing you still got it. [00:13:05] Speaker A: And unfortunately, in heterosexual couple, I think it falls along sort of gender lines, where oftentimes the men are still communicating desire and the women are feeling kind of avoidant. Right. So sometimes it's reversing those roles, too, you know, for the trying to help the female partner feel enough interest and safety to, like, actually tap into that and welcome the desirous energy that's coming toward her. And for the guy also, you know, feel desired. Like, they oftentimes they're still more interested in initiation than the female partner, but they're over there feeling like, who wants me? Like, you know, I'm in the game too. [00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think for heterosexual couples in particular, what I always remind my female clients in those relationships is, look, it's not just that he wants to have sex with you. Like, if it was just about the sex or just about getting off, that's something he could take into his own hands. It's, you know, wanting that experience of connection. It's sex as a way to express love. And of course, the physical pleasure is a part of it, but it's so much more than the orgasm. [00:14:11] Speaker A: I will also say to that is the idea that a lot of these women that are 50, 60, 70. Like, the end of the sentence isn't, I don't like sex. The full sentence is, I don't like the sex I'm having. And so I don't believe that oftentimes they're really completely shut for business. Like, they don't want it. I think they just are, like, ambivalent about the quality of the sex they've had. So if the conversation changed and she could really express what she wants. And to your point, like, right, it's not just the sexual act. It's a bigger narrative, or it's a different kind of exchange. There is more desire because you're gonna want it because it was pleasing and it worked for you. So then you're like, okay, yes versus, yeah, I don't want that. [00:14:54] Speaker B: Totally. And one of the first questions I ask my clients coming in with low desire is, like, tell me about the quality of the sex. Like, if it's bland, if you're eating dry toast every day, like, you're probably not gonna be that excited for breakfast when you wake up. But if you got a buffet of all kinds of exciting treats to pick and choose from, then, yeah, you'd probably be a little more. Got some pep in your step when you hop out of bed in the morning. And the same applies to sex. You have to ask yourself, is the sex worth wanting? Which I think brings us to the topic of pleasure and satisfaction. Yeah. So what is your advice to couples as it relates to reviving that sense of pleasure and satisfaction within the sex itself? [00:15:36] Speaker A: I really think it starts with self. I think you have to know what your own profile is, your pleasure profile, and being able to tap into that. And then I think as women especially, we are a little more mysterious. I think men have easier access to pleasure, but women have to understand that. What do you need mentally to prepare? What do you like physically? I mean, we're not all the same. We're not wired the same. We're literally physically different, you know, differently. So what is it that turns you on? What is it that helps you connect to self? And then are you willing to share that with a partner, if you have a partner? Because I think that people get routined and they stop reading the signals and they stop trying. Especially, too, if there's a negative feedback loop, you know, it's like it starts being more and more of like, a rigid, you know, recipe. And so opening that back up to the beginning when there was exploratory play and when there was a willingness to ask or to guide a hand if you can't verbally do it, you know, but sort of some of that energy, I think, is really helpful for the pleasure side of things. [00:16:39] Speaker B: Are you struggling with emotional or physical intimacy? I have good news. I am now offering an unbeatable deal for my private six week online workshop. When you purchase my new book, Anatomy of Desire, you get the workshop for free. That's right. It's on the house. With qualified book purchases. Certain rules do apply, but check out emilyjamia.com workshop for all the details. Totally. And I think for women, probably a bit more so than for men. What worked yesterday isn't necessarily gonna work today or tomorrow. There just tends to be a lot more variability in female sexuality and what makes sex pleasurable. And I always encourage people, like, look, on the one hand, I can understand why that might be a little bit frustrating. It's not like a recipe you can follow, but I always try to reframe with, like. But that's kind of what makes it exciting. It's the discoverability, it's the untapped potential. And so I think we just really have to choose what lens we're going to look at female sexual pleasure through. Are we going to feel frustrated that it's not a step by step recipe, or could we feel a little bit excited and a sense of intrigue with what is yet to discover? [00:17:52] Speaker A: And also, I would say that for women, like, so much of it is what's going on in the mind. [00:17:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:17:58] Speaker A: Right. So the roadmap. Yes, there's pieces of it. Like, does she have sensitive breasts or that type of thing? Like, is there interest in physical parts? But also, so much of it is about the mind, like, what is going on? First of all, how are you getting along in that day, before you tried to engage sexually? How much foreplay and playfulness was there in advance? Are you making eye contact, like, all those relational pieces that prime her mentally before you even try to touch? You know, so, like, paying attention to all those pieces, I think, is really important. [00:18:29] Speaker B: Totally agree. Now, you have done a lot of research, specifically in the area of female sexuality and more specifically in the area of lesbian sexuality. So I would love to hear a little bit about your research and what maybe heterosexual women could learn from lesbian women, because we know a lot of things. And truth be told they tend to be more sexually satisfying than heterosexual women. So I'd love to talk a little bit about your research and then what people can learn. Get your notepad. Yeah. [00:18:59] Speaker A: Yes. Well, and I would say it's probably the men that can learn from the lesbians more than men. Get your notepads. Because the data actually shows that lesbian relationships sexually tend to be more satisfying. And that is largely because they take their time. Right. It's not sometimes even ever about penetrative play. It's about whole body experience. Also, in particular, lesbians really broadly define sex. So it's not this one act. It's the whole gamut. It's body to body. It's different kinds of, you know, breast play. It's like there's lots of things happening, and there is a balanced play that tends to be. So there's a lot of buildup, which ends up being much more satisfying on the back end. They tend to be more orgasmic. That said, orgasm isn't also always the goal, right? The journey is the destination with same sex attracted women more typically. So I thought that was really interesting, is that intimacy was more the priority than. Exactly. Erotic or orgasm. [00:20:06] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's where the paradox lies, which is what's something a lot. [00:20:10] Speaker A: Of people can learn from. [00:20:11] Speaker B: Because when you make orgasm the goal of sex, particularly in heterosexual relationships, in which orgasm typically comes more easily, so to speak, for men, than it does for women, when women feel that sense of pressure to climax and when they have that awareness that it's all about you trying to get them off, that in and of itself can inhibit the orgasm. It does not take much to inhibit the female orgasm. And so it makes a lot of sense to me that paradoxically, lesbian couples are not having goal oriented sex, are not making orgasm the goal of sex, and are therefore having more orgasms, I think a lot of people would hear that and assume, like, oh, well, it's just because they understand each other's anatomy better. But that's not what you discovered in your research. [00:20:59] Speaker A: No, that is the quick, like, thought about it. But that actually is not why? Because even though they both have vulvas, they are not the same body. They have very, you know, women's bodies line up differently. It's more about the willingness to take the time to explore and to feel more gratification and satisfaction. And so what you also just said, too, is interesting, because oftentimes I hear that reflected in heterosexual clients that are coming in, is that the women feel performative. You know, there's this expectation, especially as the couples age and men start to have more erectile dysfunction. Is that okay if I can't orgasm? Then you're the star and we're going to focus on you. And she's like, I don't want that. Yeah, I don't want that. I want this to be relational, and I don't want it to be compensatory where I'm trying to, like, make you feel extra good. Even though my orgasm, by making me feel good. Yeah. [00:21:51] Speaker B: Like my orgasm becomes about your ego. No, thanks. [00:21:55] Speaker A: Exactly. I say to those couples, hey, even if you're having erectile dysfunction, it doesn't matter. You can still have sensation. Right? There's still absolutely, like, that's all possible. Women don't have that because. Because nobody's getting an erection. Right. It's just not the same measure. Isn't there? The bodies are the bodies and there's exploration and there's less ego in the outcome of having to have it look one particular way. What is different, though, and this is kind of interesting, and it comes into play with heterosexual couples to some degree, sometimes is the power differential or the power negotiation. Let's say that way because oftentimes there's this expectation that men take a role and women take a role. But with the same sex couple, that role gets negotiated. Right? Like, who's in charge, who initiates, who gives, who receives who, you know, who takes what role. And it happens in the everyday, but it certainly happens in the bedroom, too. And some couples, again, are fixed into roles of giving and receiving and that type of thing. And more dominant and less dominant. But oftentimes, and I would say especially with the younger generation coming up, they're more versatile, they're more willing to share in roles and expectations. And I think heterosexual couples could really benefit from that because, I mean, oftentimes women are sort of back leading relationships anyway, but sexually there's this expectation. Men have a lot of responsibility and pressure in the sexual realm that isn't necessary. Like, it doesn't have to be that way. [00:23:29] Speaker B: So to clarify, you're saying that in lesbian relationships there is more of an explicit negotiation of who's the initiator or versus, like, who's a little bit more dominant sexually versus who's more receptive or passive sexually? Or are you saying that there tends to be more equality in those roles in lesbian relationships? [00:23:51] Speaker A: I just want to clarify your point. Well, I think it's sort of a delineation based on age younger, younger lesbians who don't even call themselves lesbians anymore. There's like a million other names. They tend to have much more versatility, and there's more fluidity in terms of roles. Older lesbians, I would say maybe over 50, 45, 50, something like that, tend to have more fixed roles in the way heterosexuals tend to do. But in general, same sex couples, both male and female, there's more. That negotiation of roles is nothing as explicitly defined. [00:24:26] Speaker B: Yeah. And what I always encourage my couples is to explore your latent side or my individuals, rather, because I think at the end of the day, we all have a more assertive side and a more passive side. And it can be kind of fun to play with those different sides in the bedroom and like that in and of itself, having the curiosity about your latent side or the side that you're not as tapped into, that can add a lot of excitement and extra special sauce to the sex you're having. [00:24:53] Speaker A: I think that's interesting to put it that way, because that has never occurred to me, actually, to suggest that. But I love that idea. I do. Sometimes, you know, when you go through, like a. Even like a sensate focus, say. Right, like, which is a really basic exercise, usually people either are more comfortable giving or receiving. [00:25:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:13] Speaker A: And so looking at the role that they're not so comfortable with. And how was it to just be quiet and receive, for example. Right. And not talk and not make jokes and just allow it. And so when folks are in sort of, that role of feels a little more tender or a little more, like, risky or something like that. [00:25:30] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:31] Speaker A: Then I think that's probably when the brain, the brain wakes up because it's a little more alert. Right. It feels a little like a risk to do something different. [00:25:38] Speaker B: Exactly. I do a lot of research and writing on the intersection of flow state and sexual satisfaction, and one of the components of flow is striking the right challenge to skills ratio. So, you know, we know that when the challenge of what we're doing is too far above our skillset, we can feel anxious. When the challenge of what we're doing is too far below our skillset, we can feel bored. But there's a sweet spot, and it's only about 4% different that we can get into a flow state. And so what I always tell couples, especially when it comes to sexual exploration and novelty, is that you don't necessarily have to dive in off the deep end to explore. Sometimes it's more about turning within and thinking about different sides to your own personality that you haven't really tapped into and finding ways to express those parts in the bedroom, which can help you strike that 4%. [00:26:32] Speaker A: That makes a lot of sense because the excitement and the fear kind of run on the same channel, and so challenging yourself to do something a little bit different, a little bit out of the norm, is going to feel frightening and exciting. [00:26:48] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. I did an episode a couple months back on sexual synchronicity with Bridget Friehard, and she does research on how our autonomic nervous systems synced up during sex. And one of the things she pointed out is that a lot of times we have this idea that women in particular need to be totally relaxed in order to feel arousal. But that's nothing, actually, what the nervous system is telling us. Like, we need to feel a little bit fired up and a little bit excited and a little bit activated in order for arousal to kick in. And so women who are fearful of sexual exploration, I want you to make note of that, that it would behoove you to tap into. To lean in, let's say, to a little bit of trepidation, but just the right amount, and see what that does for your own arousal. [00:27:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. Like, as long as there is basic safety, you know, the safety that we're talking about is more. Am I going to be embarrassed? Am I going to get rejected? Am I going to, you know. Yeah, but that's always there if we're taking new risks. [00:27:53] Speaker B: Right. [00:27:54] Speaker A: You know, so it's like, how are they going to respond if I touch them in this way or if I show some assertion or aggression, you know, in this sexual realm, you know? And I think people get in their heads a lot when clients come in through the door of dysfunction, they have psyched themselves out because in the erotic space, either they felt a lot of rejection and that just led them to, like, shut down, or they're just paralyzed to some degree about taking action. [00:28:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:28:21] Speaker A: So that's more on the men's side of things. But there's so much nonverbal that's happening between a couple. That's what you were talking about with, you know, the syncing between two people because. Because we all kind of want to play, we want to experience these things. But it feels frightening. It feels frightening to do anything we haven't done that hasn't gotten a good outcome in the past. [00:28:41] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Well, lucky for people, you have a program to help with that. So there's so much to talk about here, but why don't you share with people a little bit about your program and where they can learn more on how to experience pleasure, women in particular, because that's your, your target group, right? Yeah. [00:29:01] Speaker A: So far it's been just women. I am expanding it to couples because I've got several couples that really want to do the program. So right now I have a six week program that is online and it's called the Pleasure project is the bigger kind of umbrella. The pleasure circle is the group in particular. And I run that three times a year is usually what I do. And there's a whole curriculum. So each week is maybe 20 minutes of kind of a lecture, like sort of in the, in the area that we've been talking about today. And then there's writing prompts. So they're, they're writing about how what I just talked about applies to them, and then we're talking about it as a process group. So we're, we're talking through it. They're benefiting from hearing from one another. I am now kind of moving towards taking this to couples. And the funny thing is, I've got several couples that want to do it, but they're very hesitant to do it with others. And I know it's scary to talk about, but it's so beneficial too, like hearing from other people, especially guys. You know, they will talk about it with other, because women will talk about it with other women, but men get a little funny about it and yet they can so benefit from it. So trying to unpack, where have you been? Like, what's your history with pleasure and with eroticism and what gets in the way for you? What are your unique obstacles? That type of thing influences obstacles. You know, there's a little bit about anatomy. Like, literally, what are the parts that we have? There's, we're looking at attachment. We're looking at kind of your own unique cultivation of your sexual kind of template, your erotic template. We're looking at toys that can maybe enhance, you know, some, some things that you can bring in and then sort of bringing it all together for kind of looking for some future planning. So that's sort of a rough sketch of. [00:30:46] Speaker B: Very cool. [00:30:46] Speaker A: Yeah. The pleasure circle. [00:30:47] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:30:48] Speaker A: Well, check it out. [00:30:49] Speaker B: I will be sure to link it in the show notes. Jen, this was such a great conversation. Thank you so much for joining me today. I mean, I could talk about desire all day long. So if you like this episode, be sure to rate and review, subscribe so you don't miss anything. And Jen, I hope to talk to you sometime soon in the future. [00:31:07] Speaker A: Sounds good. Thanks for having me. [00:31:09] Speaker C: Thanks again for listening to love and libido with me, your host, doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and drop me a five star review. Positive ratings help keep the show going. As much as we can learn from experts, nothing makes us feel more connected than hearing from each other. If you have a question about your love life, visit loveandlabiedo.com and I'll answer it on an upcoming episode. And don't forget to get your copy of my new book, Anatomy of Desire five secrets to create connection and cultivate Passion, which is currently available. For pre order. Visit emilyjamia.com to try my online workshops and read my latest blogs. Subscribers to my podcast can use code halfoff for all my online learning material. Finally, you can follow me across all the social media channels for daily sex and relationship tips at dremelmelejamia. That's drmilyJamia. Thank you so much for tuning in.