Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to part two of my conversation with cyber infidelity expert Doctor Peter Canaris. If you missed it, go back and listen to part one where we discuss statistics around infidelity and cyber infidelity so you'll know who is most likely to cheat and why. Today in part two, we dive into Doctor Peter Canaris collaborative model for infidelity recovery and discuss how to reestablish trust. Let's meet our guest. Doctor Peter Canaris is a licensed psychologist and ASEC certified diplomat of sex therapy. He is his distinguished fellow of the New York State Psychological association. He has been the featured guest on many live interviews and college television programs. Doctor Canaris has developed the collaborative model for the couple's treatment of infidelity and cyber infidelity. Without further ado, let's get started.
[00:00:49] Speaker B: I am back with Doctor Kaeneerys. So we ended the last episode talking about how the opportunity for infidelity is always in our back pocket thanks to our cell phones.
[00:01:00] Speaker A: We know that screen time poses a.
[00:01:01] Speaker B: Risk to kids, but let's pick up.
[00:01:04] Speaker A: Today talking more about why adults and.
[00:01:06] Speaker B: Couples need to take that risk seriously, too. I'm just going to dive right in with my first question. So what advice do you give to couples, not just couples who have been through cyber infidelity, but any couple when it comes to reasonable parameters and boundaries with cell phones?
[00:01:23] Speaker C: To your point, I will deal with it both if there's been a crisis of cyber infidelity, but I will discuss it as a matter of course in just about all my couples therapies that youve got to think about this and talk about it and develop your own kind of couples guidelines on the use of technology and the use of our screens to be able to use the kind of technology that we have available for monitoring, like you described getting that report of Obama, this is how much time I spent so developing that personal awareness, maybe talking about it together. Hey, do you think, what kind of adjustments should we make checking in with each other, not because there's a problem, but every so often it's a week, once a month, whenever. Let's see how we're doing and what adjustments we might want to make on our screens as an example. Okay. And then talking to each other. Okay. When we talk to each other, let's make an effort to talk face to face and make eye contact. And even if, again, if it's not a question of infidelity, it is at best diverted attention, divided attention.
[00:02:40] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:02:41] Speaker C: And you know what? That's going to affect the relationship. You know, you don't pay any attention to me.
You don't care what I have to say. These are the kinds of things that we begin to hear, and it's because of that kind of diversion and distraction that happens. So there needs to be. It's not like one big conversation. We've got to build in with some regularity. We've got to manage the beast, and let's talk together and figure out how we're doing and any adjustment that we need to make.
[00:03:12] Speaker B: What do you think, Peter makes some couples more susceptible to cyber infidelity? I mean, obviously, I would imagine to an extent the same things that make any couple susceptible to infidelity. Emotional neglect, sexual neglect, longstanding resentment, conflict, that kind of thing. Although we know that infidelity happens in couples who report otherwise pretty, you know, high marital and sexual satisfaction. So are there any differences in your mind as far as what kind of couple may be susceptible to this kind of betrayal versus the old school infidelity?
[00:03:45] Speaker C: Great question. Okay. And often the way I deal with it is with the metaphor of the iceberg. And what I mean by that is, you know, even in presentations, I have this couple in a. In a lovely little sailboat, sailing along, enjoying and observing these beautiful glaciers. Okay? And I point out how there's more ice below the surface than there is above. So the boat now hits that point of infidelity, which is above the surface, okay? And all that has to be addressed just based on that, which is plenty, all right? But it also reverberates beneath the surface, and that's really what each person brings in terms of their personal psychosexual developmental history.
All right? So one couple is there, and his person is prone to getting lost on the Internet and in social media, because growing up, he had lots of difficulties in getting attention from the opposite sex and didn't really feel that he was successful or appreciated. But, man, is he popular now. He's getting likes and hearts all over the place, and he's doing the next click, and he's developing some more conversations and getting to know some folks, and one thing leads to another, and off we go. All right, so that was his below the iceberg, where her below the iceberg was in her family. Her father was kind of neglectful and really preferred another sibling, and she felt kind of left out in this regard. So now when it hits the fan in this way, not only does she have the surface upset of what's occurred, which is enough upset on its own, but it's. Developmentally, it's reverberating with an issue that she had been carrying for a long time.
[00:05:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Triggering another core trauma.
[00:05:53] Speaker C: That's correct. That's correct. So in the treatment, you got to get to all of that. And again, with the model that I've developed, which I call the collaborative model, one of the efforts that we make is to be able to address sometimes some of those developmental issues that normally therapists will think about, as that's kind of the province of individual therapy. All right. Or go get a little EMDR or go take care of that out there. There. And then come back into the couples therapy. In the collaborative approach, one of the things we try to do is to have each person hear and understand how profound the effect is of the infidelity, because it reverberates to the iceberg below the surface for their partner and to be able to hear that with compassion and support for each other as we get to know each person's below the surface iceberg in that way. And I find that to be very, very important in what I call transforming the phobic object to an object of comfort, meaning the partner has become a phobic object, almost like a phobia of mice.
[00:07:13] Speaker B: Sure.
[00:07:13] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:07:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:07:14] Speaker C: You know, you're now traumatized, and you don't trust that preacher.
[00:07:19] Speaker B: Stay away.
[00:07:20] Speaker C: So as we work in this way, the goal becomes to gradually desensitize that and to see, you know what? I can be safe with you.
When I thought it was not possible, as we come, to better understand each other and support each other in that way.
[00:07:38] Speaker B: So you're talking about the person who had the affair or who stepped outside the relationship in whatever capacity that they talked to the betrayed spouse about their experience doing so. Is that what you're saying?
[00:07:52] Speaker C: I'm talking both ways.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Both ways? Yeah. Yeah.
[00:07:54] Speaker C: Because now, okay, this can help you to better understand the depth of my trauma. Because you were unfaithful to me. However, it also answers the dreaded question that people get stuck on. Why?
Why did this happen? So now I can understand.
Not to excuse it or make it okay, sure. But I can understand that for you, the person who cheated, this was kind of what was driving your behavior. Not just that I'm not good enough or that I got a few more wrinkles now or I put a few more pounds, because this becomes how we fill in the blanks. That the reason you cheated is because you're just not into me anymore, because I'm not good enough.
[00:08:44] Speaker B: Yeah, right, right. A lot of times, it has nothing to do with the other person. Which is why people kind of are aghast, because they're like, I thought everything was fine between us. How could you do this? You must have narcissistic personality disorder or something like that, and we don't want to necessarily pathologize. I mean, one thing I do very similarly is I'll have the betrayed partner write an impact statement, which I think goes along with exactly what you're saying, so that the person who acted out can really feel the impact of their actions on the betrayed partner. Because most. I mean, people who cheat do so despite not having sociopathy or not having narcissistic personality disorder. Most humans have empathy. And so when you can sit down, when you get to a place, once a little bit of the dust has settled and that you're out of that initial crisis phase, you can get to a place and really work to understand each other through a deeper level. I think that's when you can join together to try to make repairs.
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[00:10:05] Speaker C: Another aspect that's so critically important is trust. If I had to say, the most damaging aspect of all of it is that trust has been broken and people don't know what to do with it. We might want to try to repair it and put it back together, but how do we do it? I have found the approaches and the models largely to be inadequate in addressing the. The repair of trust. So I think the reason being is that people sort of embark in relationships with what I call the blind faith approach to trust. I love you, darling. You're the one for me, and I trust you implicitly until the bad thing happens. Okay, so now I'm in that position.
The only model I have is blind faith. So I either have to go back to that, which then makes me feel like a dope, especially when all my concerned family and friends are saying, once a cheater, always a cheater. How can you trust them? Again, how can you do that? All right, so that model doesn't work. What is it I'm going to do?
And that's where I try to help people develop what I call the evidence based model of trust.
[00:11:24] Speaker B: Let's talk about that, because I think that's to your point. That's where a lot of couples get stuck, is how can I ever trust you again? And what's your advice to people? I mean, let's talk about what your approach is to reestablishing trust, because that's the hardest piece.
[00:11:40] Speaker C: I offer them a formula for reestablishing trust, which I'm calling the evidence based model. And that's essentially an equation.
Trust equals a truth plus transparency over time.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: I love that.
[00:12:01] Speaker C: Plus transparency over time. How do we establish that what typically happens when trust has been broken?
The relational model not becomes either. You could call it cat and mouse or cops and robbers. Meaning, okay, I have to obsessively monitor what you're doing. I'm going to catch you doing the wrong thing. Okay. Now the person who's being scrutinized develops resentment and then may again become secretive in some way. It doesn't work. Okay. So the collaborative model is that, you know what? We have to recognize that this is an issue external from us. We're going to join forces, collaborate with each other, and, and in this case, the therapist on working a plan on how to gradually build trust over time. So now the person who has been unfaithful, and a lot of therapists, a lot of miles, will not accept this. Okay. This idea for a time will voluntarily compromise privacy. If you're going to show good faith, you're going to be extremely transparent for a period of time in the service of providing reassurance.
[00:13:23] Speaker B: I get that. I mean, the context is different than it was. If you. Yeah, I think, yeah, as a general rule, you respect privacy, but when the context is completely shattered, as it is in the case, post infidelity, I get why for a period of time, which I like, that we're talking about bookending it a little bit, that you're transparent.
[00:13:42] Speaker C: Yes. So, so now instead of, okay, I'm gonna. I'm gonna sneak and try to check his phone. It's like, here. How are you feeling? You want to look anything over? Okay. I'm away on a business meeting or trip. Okay. I'm going to communicate with you. I might even do a Facetime call and show you where I am and who I'm with. Okay. In a. In a, you know, in a. A delicate way. In other words, the person who has been unfaithful will be not resentful and hidden, but will be aggressive in saying, you seem like you're a little. A little uncomfortable with this, that I'll be going, is there anything I could do to make you more comfortable? And there may be something practical, there may be not. But the spirit of it is that we are working together cooperatively and collaboratively to beat this thing.
[00:14:37] Speaker B: Yeah. Which puts people. Yeah. Which gets people out of the tendency to either a become a detective and start snooping all the time, because that can be so obsessive and create so much chronic anxiety. And then the other person's job is to react non defensively. You know, when I'm working with a couple at this stage in the treatment, I will tell the one who has been betrayed to let their partner know when they're feeling a little bit of a trigger or a little bit of insecurity, and they can go to them and say, hey, you know, I'm feeling a little uncomfortable because of x, y and z. And then the other person's job is to say, hey, I get that. You know, what can I do to make you feel more comfortable? Do you want to do a quick Facetime session? Let me show you my messages. Like, you know, within reason, whatever they need to do to help the other one feel more reassured.
[00:15:27] Speaker C: Yes. Now, the other aspect of this is, as the process unfolds, what invariably happens is that it's uneven. It's a little bit like the roller coaster now, because what happens is the person who has been betrayed, okay, actually has a little bit of panic when things get. Things get better, because now it's like, oh, boy, if I let my guard down and I will allow myself to be comfortable, I was that way before. Will the bad thing happen again? Okay. So I help them to anticipate that, to look at that rather than. Because if they're not ready for it, you'll hear things like, oh, you're never going to trust me. We're back to square one. No, you're not back to square one. You've moved along in the process. I talk about it as a speed bump, to process like you're in a parking lot. All it tells you is you're still heading to the exit, but slow down. It's a bump and it's supposed to be there. And it's indicative not of regression but of progress.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Right. I always like people to identify the difference between, like, a quote unquote slip versus a little more full blown relapse into dysfunctional behavior. And I think the same applies here. In the process of change, the process of healing is rarely, if ever, constant. You have to expect there to be times where you're going to feel like you're maybe regressing a little bit. But understand that given the broader context of things. When you take a step back and look at the whole picture, that you're still on a positive trajectory towards healing and recovery.
[00:16:59] Speaker C: And, Emily, so important to discuss that.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: With people that they can expect it.
[00:17:03] Speaker C: It helps their expectation.
They don't misinterpret.
[00:17:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Peter, I'm curious to hear your opinion. You know, there's been such a focus in the past couple years, especially on consensual non monogamy, open relationships. You know, we started the conversation off talking about how pervasive infidelity is. And I'm wondering if this day and age that ever comes up as part of your conversation with couples, the question of whether, you know, monogamy long term is the right choice for them versus, you know, do we need to talk about creating space for one or the other to explore things consensually outside the relationship?
[00:17:47] Speaker C: Yes. Sometimes that will come up as a discussion of another option that, that might become something that allows them to regain health in their relationship and move forward together with this kind of a modification with an alternative model. I find that to be more the exception that the couples, at least that tend to seek me out tend to be couples that are in traditional relationships, marriages. Their expectation is very much, no pun intended, married to that model.
[00:18:31] Speaker B: I like the pun.
[00:18:35] Speaker C: That's their worldview. If that's the case, and I sort of start to head in that direction, they'll look at me as, you know, this, what's this therapist? You know, he's not getting us in terms of what we want, which is very different for people that are open and accustomed to that model. And now they're sort of dealing with issues perhaps of infidelity as a throuple or infidelity and with a different model, you know, so you could do the work there.
But at least in my experience, I'm finding changing, creating an openness to that different view gets a lot of resistance.
[00:19:14] Speaker B: Yeah, it's tough.
[00:19:16] Speaker C: I'm not coming to you, Doc, for that. What do you.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: It can feel even more threatening. I get it. Yeah. And I, and I agree with you. I think people really struggle. I mean, I am of the mind today that, you know, I think information is power and that people, before really determining what their value system is around anything, need to educate themselves about, you know, maybe alternative models that they didn't know much about because we are starting to get more information and more data. And, you know, I just think especially when it comes to infidelity, given its pervasiveness, it's worth talking about. With couples, even though that can feel scary and intimidating sometimes. Yeah.
[00:19:55] Speaker C: Yeah. Without a doubt. I tend to think, again, not based on data, but just, you know, clinical observation. I think it's a yemenite generational thing, too, where I think, I'll say roughly above and below 40, where younger people are now, just as you're seeing an increase in being on the sexual spectrum versus a binary and a greater transgenderism and awareness, I think that more of an openness to different models of relationship, we're finding among the younger generations, the younger people. And again, there are plenty exceptions to that. But I'm just. I think as a whole, you tend to find that.
[00:20:41] Speaker B: I think you're absolutely right, and I think that 40 is probably a very fair number and something clinicians should all be aware of when working with couples around infidelity.
[00:20:50] Speaker C: The company that owns Ashley Madison actually reached out to me at one point. I think they were interested in inviting mental health professional in to sort of more legitimize, if you will, their service and all of that. And I think the tagline was something to the effect, life is short, have an affair.
[00:21:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that was exactly their tagline.
[00:21:17] Speaker C: And my approach in the discussion was, well, okay, the key is to make it ethical, you know, so to approach it in a way where it's not this secretive, surreptitious type of affair, but rather more of an open idea that's presented.
We had a conversation about that, and that was the last I heard of.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: I mean, it's like, come on, they're bringing a therapist in. Like, here we're going to be the road to which you blow up your marriage. But here we have this great therapist here, help you pick up the pieces.
[00:21:52] Speaker C: I think I like my idea on it.
[00:21:54] Speaker B: Yeah. That is so funny. Oh, man. Okay, well, on that note, Peter, where can people learn more about you and find you online?
[00:22:04] Speaker C: Probably the easiest is just to go to my website. And I've actually got a website dedicated to this topic, including use of social media and smartphones and all of that and how it affects couples. And it's cyberinfidelityhelp.com. all one word. Also, Emily, I should say there's a downloadable guide to infidelity in the digital age. People can download for free that's got sort of like a pamphlet on ideas that are relevant.
[00:22:38] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, I will link that directly in the show notes to make it easy for people. And I really think for anybody listening, whether this is something you have gone through or nothing, talk about it with your partner. So that you can prepare yourselves, figure out what your values are, not just around cell phone use, but you got to talk through some of these gray areas because it's not so black and white today as we've now learned. So thank you for that. I will link it. And Peter, it was great connecting with you and I hope to stay in touch.
[00:23:07] Speaker C: Absolutely. Thank you for having me.
[00:23:09] Speaker D: Thanks again for listening to love and libido with me, your host, doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and drop me a five star review. Positive ratings help keep the show going. As much as we can learn from experts, nothing makes us feel more connected than hearing from each other. If you have a question about your love life, visit loveandlabedo.com and I'll answer it on an upcoming episode. And don't forget to get your copy of my new book, Anatomy of five secrets to create connection and cultivate passion, which is currently available for pre order. Visit emilyjamia.com to try my online workshops and read my latest blogs. Subscribers to my podcast can use code halfoff for all my online learning material. Finally, you can follow me across all the social media channels for daily sex and relationship tips at dremelayjamia. That's drmilyJamia. Thank you so much for tuning in.
