Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: It's probably no secret that your upbringing shaped the way you interact with people around you, especially your romantic partner. You may even be able to pinpoint your specific triggers. But how skilled are you at identifying the specific attachment wound that was triggered? And more importantly, calming and ultimately reprogramming your nervous system to respond instead of reacting. That's the topic of today's episode. I'm joined by Jen Pinkerton, a psychotherapist, high performance coach, certified sex therapist, writer, speaker, and host of the Redhead Reveal podcast. As owner of Pinkerton Psychotherapy, she works with individuals and couples to uncover the root causes of limiting beliefs and behaviors, guiding them back to the person they were born to be before they were.
[00:00:52] Speaker B: Shaped by their trauma.
[00:00:54] Speaker A: A true change agent, she is passionate about helping people reveal their connected within their relationships and sexuality, fostering deeper self awareness and growth. Without further ado, let's get started.
[00:01:08] Speaker B: Jen Pinkerton, welcome to the show.
[00:01:11] Speaker C: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here.
[00:01:13] Speaker B: I am so glad you're here. So for people tuning in, what you may not know is that both Jen and I are located in Houston, which means that we get to bump into each other from time to time. And so I just feel like it's extra fun having these conversations with people I know a little bit on a personal level too. And so I'm really excited for her to be here.
[00:01:34] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: So, Jen, I love to start by asking you to share a little bit about how you got into the field and what your focus is and a little bit about you and your career evolution. So let's just dive into that.
[00:01:49] Speaker C: Sure. So I specialize in relationships and sex therapy and I have always written about relationships and I was a freelance writer for many years before I became a therapist. And I loved relationships, the topic of them, how we interact, how we show up with people. And I originally went back to grad school for the sole purpose of getting some credentials just to help me sell more writing. It was so vain and so basic, but once I actually went through this process of learning all these amazing skills and things we learned, I fell in love with the art of holding space for somebody, the act of attending to somebody. And I felt like it was such a privilege and an honor to be able to be part of somebody's story and learn about them and learn about what their presenting struggles are and issues. And I pivoted. I decided there's no reason why I can't do both. So I still am a writer. I have a monthly column and I have a book coming Out. But I love the ability that I have to get to work with somebody and sit with somebody and hold space for them with their relationship concerns. So I really consider myself pretty lucky that I was able to do both.
[00:02:52] Speaker B: Yes. And I think it's so fun to be able to use those skills in two completely different ways. You know, the experiences, I'm sure, you know, you can relate to, of sitting with someone and providing them with that one on one care and really kind of deep, profound, meaningful, transformative way, but then having the opportunity to reach a much wider audience with the information that you have is really special in its own unique way. So I think it's awesome that you are able to do both.
[00:03:21] Speaker C: I really do love it. I love what I'm doing. I have a podcast as well and kind of further those conversations too. And I feel like it's just so nice to be in a space where all the topics are within this wheelhouse that I love. And I've been able to kind of make a little. Little carved out section.
[00:03:37] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:03:38] Speaker C: Enjoy doing.
[00:03:39] Speaker B: Yes.
Now, I know that attachment theory informs a lot of your work. Tell me when and how attachment entered the picture for you and why that resonated so much with your approach.
[00:03:55] Speaker C: You know, as most therapists, I had my own traumatic experiences. A lot of therapists have that which shapes them and how they want to do this work. But. But I had my own. And. And I felt like what we experienced when we're younger, before I even knew any science behind it, I knew that it affected me. I knew that it affected how I interact in an interpersonal way with other people. And so for me, that lens is what I really wanted to study. I wanted to understand what that family origin looks like, what my early love lessons, as I call them, were, you know, in my attachment. And how did that shape me? And how did that shape me in the way I react and interact to my friends, the way I respond, you know, to anything that I have to do in my life with other people, the way I show up romantically, the way I would show up sexually. And I realized that all these things are tied together early on. And then when I studied it in grad school, I was like, aha. It's this epiphany. It all comes together.
[00:04:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:04:50] Speaker C: Believe that we are nothing short in our personality is nothing short of a collection of. Of our own trauma responses and experiences we've had. And so to me, everything that we have experienced in our formative years shape who we are.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: So true. And, you know, I think once you learn that attachment perspective and the science and learn systemic therapy, which for people listening who don't know what that means, it just means kind of understanding that humans are best understood in and through their relationships with other people and that we are one part of a system of other parts working together. It's really hard not to view the world in any other way because it does make so much sense, I think, for how we live and interact and relate to others.
[00:05:38] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think that understanding that when people have not been given a glimpse of that and then they start doing some work or I'm working with them and they realize it, it is like an epiphany. It's like this light bulb goes off.
And I think sometimes attachment gets a negative name because people think we're playing the blame game, something my parents did. And I'm not about the blame game. I truly sit from a fundamental stance of that most parents did the very best they could with what they had. And it's what they had part. It's the part that, that there's generational trauma, there's modeling that's passed down from generations, but most people just do what they're, what they're shown, and they don't know any different. And, and they may not have had a reckoning in their life to have to examine or self reflect. And if you're not taking inventory of yourself or how you're affecting your own life and others, you're going to continue doing what you know. We just do what we know, that that's kind of how life works. And so understanding that, that these love lessons and, and what you experience can shape you. And it's not just about your parents or primary caregivers. It's. It's what happened to you on the playground. It's what happened to you when you first connected with a friend and, and what that felt like when younger. And so from that aspect, I think that a lot of people, when they start learning about it, they can truly go back and trace, you know, back in their life. Oh, wait a minute. I fundamentally remember feeling this, and now I can connect the dots of why that makes me feel this when I'm activated by. When I am highly activated and triggered and dysregulated. I'm going back to this familiar wound of when I wasn't picked to play, you know, softball, whatever it was, and it affected me, and here I am today. And I think that knowledge is so powerful, and I feel like we have to understand the why sometimes to be able to transform Even though there's a lot of ways to improve your life without understanding that why, and not to discredit or devalue those. When you get that final missing link, it's like the key to the puzzle, you know, almost.
And I think that makes such a big difference in somebody's healing journey.
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[00:08:23] Speaker B: So true. It makes me think. I was at a women's retreat this past weekend and there was a woman in a yoga class that I was doing who the yoga. The instructor asked everyone to kind of share what they were feeling that day or something. I can't remember exactly what the prompt was, but she raised her hand and she said, you know, my whole life. And she was, was probably late 50s if I had to guess. She said, you know, my whole life I operated under the belief that self awareness was a curse.
And she said, this weekend has completely changed that belief for me. And I was like, ah, amen, sister. Like, it is never too late. Yes, like know thyself. And because it's so true, once you have the language and the framework to understand the root of your motivations and your responses and your triggers, it is so empowering. I mean, like, you've used the word epiphany a couple of times and I can't think of a better word because just the information alone can make you feel a lot more secure in who you are because you understand yourself.
[00:09:29] Speaker C: Absolutely. And you know, there's so many things in our life we can't control.
And I feel like that, that having a knowledge of why we do something, although we may not be able to immediately pivot from this behavior pattern, we have the knowledge of why we're doing that feels like a sense of, oh, I have a little bit more control over my life because I know what I'm doing, I know why I'm doing it, and I'm Able to now stop and pause and take my power back in that moment to pause and recognize. Okay, wait a minute. This makes sense to me.
[00:09:59] Speaker B: Yeah. I would love your perspective on, you know, if you could. I'm going to put you on the spot, kind of give an overview of the primary attachment styles. But what I am specifically interested in you sharing is the nervous system response in our romantic relationships with other people. Because I know you also do a lot of writing and research on nervous system regulation specifically as it relates to attachments. So go.
[00:10:29] Speaker C: I think that a disconnect that a lot of people don't recognize is the mind body connection. A lot of people, until you've done a deep dive and doing some emotional work, we just think that everything's up here, everything's in our mind, it's just what we're thinking. But our body keeps the score. Our body remembers everything we've experienced, even if our, you know, conscious mind does not. And so when we get into situations where we are activated, meaning that that something has triggered a wound, an unhealed part of us, then our body remembers it and our body then takes over and we will respond in a way, react really in a way instead of responding in the calm way we'd like. And so this is when you see people who react with a lot of dysregulation and they immediately go into one of these trauma responses. They go into fight where they're ready to, to. To anger, you know, anger and quick to being positive and, and maybe volatile. Or they go into flight where they're super busy and dive into work and everything else to not feel. Or they go into freeze, to shut down and to be disassociated from life, to numb out. Or they go into fawn to people please and fix. And so these things get activated. These are our go to responses and those go to responses then influence also from an attachment perspective, what our style looks like. So if we're in a relationship and we're in heavy conflict, one person might be triggered and they go into that fight and maybe the other person is triggered and they're going into this spawn and you have this immediate imbalance and then those exact feelings then also translate to maybe this person who's ready to fight. They shut down, they've overwhelmed themselves, they've exceeded their window of tolerance to cope and now they are withdrawing and they're becoming very avoidant. You may have this anxious attachment person who because they're fixing and because they're hyper vigilant to try to make everything okay, they're almost the pursuer in this other person's the withdrawal. And so these are multiple cycles that are going on at one time. You have a pursuer withdrawal stance, you have avoidant, an anxious stance. And then you've got these, these trauma responses at play. And all of it is being held in our body. And most of the time we have no idea any of this is happening until you start recognizing it. There's no clue any of it's going on.
And so most often you see certain types of people are attracted to other types of.
Part of that is that we repeat when we don't heal. Part of it is that we don't recognize that our body goes, oh, this feels familiar. Oh, I have to earn your love. This feels just like I felt when I was younger. I love this. I'm going to be right here for it. Yeah, sleep. We're not aware of that. Or another example would be you grow up in a lot of chaotic life. You have a chaotic childhood growing up. And so for you, love equals chaos. And so when you have this relationship which is chaotic, this feels like home, this feels completely normal to you. And your body says, we're good here, but you don't recognize what's happening. And so all these things influence what this looks like, whether you're going to be somebody that, that craves love as an avoidant person. But when it gets too close and it's too much of it, they are, they're backing away from it and they cannot, you know, do that. They can't engage on that level. It affects someone who's anxious, an anxiously attached person, not to be confused with anxiety, two different things here, but the anxious attached person is pursuing and wanting to resolve things and wanting to work thing out and, and almost at any cost to themselves, betraying maybe all their boundaries and all the things they normally would feel because they have this intense need to fix and chase. And so I look at it from a lens of all these things blend together.
And so you have these basic styles of an avoidant and an anxious that are usually drawn together like a magnet. And in fact, we would all love to be secure, we would all love to be in the holy grail of relations, which is securely attached, where we know who we are, we remember who we are, we have a high level of self worth, we have a high level of self reflection and self awareness, and we recognize our boundaries and we know when something's healthy or not. We all would like to be that way.
[00:14:23] Speaker B: Right? Wouldn't that be wonderful?
[00:14:24] Speaker C: Exactly. But even people who lean towards more secure when they are activated, when their body remembers some of these old wounds, all these concepts kind of throw out, get thrown out the window and we revert back to our go tos, we revert back to that trauma response, we revert back to our behaviors. And so it's all this collection of learning why your body does what it does, learning how to take that power back in your paws, to down regulate your nervous system, to help your body first separate from your mind. We're helping our body, then we work with our mind also to understand how to basically respond and not react. And then we're taking it a step further to lean into are we disorganized attachment, meaning a combination of both, or are we more avoidant? Are we more anxious and really examining how we're showing up? Because at the core need, everybody's just searching for emotional safety. Yeah, even that person that's avoidant is searching and wanting this beautiful, secure, stable love.
But they're so threatened by that vulnerability that, that fear and this trauma response that's so hard grained into them that, that they can't get out of that cycle. So I think the psycho education behind seeing it all, I find that most people hear it, see it and go, oh wait, that's me. Oh wait, I do that. Oh, I do that too. Oh, okay, I do that also. And then the interest of learning, then there's the thing, okay, now how do I fix that? How do I change that? And I don't believe any of us are broken. We're not made to be quote, fixed it. It's an evolution. I look like, you know, we were born perfect. We experience things in life that throw us off. And now we have the chance to go back to who we're born to be, which is a secure, happy person living a joyful life. And I think everybody has the ability to do that. It just takes some work, it takes some time and some effort. I tell often two things. It's interesting commitment, you know, to be able to be for that process.
So do you want me to do a deeper dive on each one? I was trying to give a broad.
[00:16:25] Speaker B: No, you did. That was a very beautiful, you know, articulation. I think of how everything fits together. What I would like to talk a little bit more about, if you don't mind, is the body piece. Because, you know, I think so many people go into therapy and they think it's just going to be talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, you know, or the therapist is just going to be there kind of passively listening to what they have to say. And you and I both know that is not typically the case. And unfortunately there are therapists like that. But we have so much so science and tools at our disposal now to help heal these wounds in the body.
[00:17:01] Speaker A: The Anatomy of Desire audiobook is finally here and I am so excited to offer you a sneak peek. Listen up for a 40 second preview. If you like what you hear, be sure to order it on Audible or wherever you listen to audiobooks. And don't forget, audiobook purchases are also eligible for all the free bonuses on my website.
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[00:17:30] Speaker D: Attention to the language my clients were using to describe the sex. They wanted words like effortless, absorbed and electric stood out.
They wanted to feel lost in the moment, forgetting their woes and insecurities.
I spent hours pouring over client notes, going back through sessions in my head and listening to people with the larger questions in mind.
What were we all searching for in the erotic realm and was it realistically possible to attain?
And then it clicked.
They wanted to experience a state of flow.
[00:18:11] Speaker B: So I would love to hear a little bit from you and for our listeners about what they can recognize in their body, how they can start paying closer attention to those activated signals, and what strategies they might try to help begin the process of healing some of those bodily reactions.
[00:18:34] Speaker C: So as we touched on how the body keeps the score, your body is remembering everything even if you consciously don't. And so learning to become attuned with your body, being able to really have that sense self awareness of what am I feeling, you know, when I'm in this activated state, do I feel like I'm going to throw up? Do I feel like my hands tingle? Is my face hot? Everybody has some sort of tell usually that their body starts can show them. If you start listening, you start paying attention to know, wait a minute, I'm not in my most authentic, grounded self at this moment, right? I am becoming disregulated. My body is going someplace else than where I want it to be. So I think the first step is self awareness. We have to become attuned. You've got to start to feel that. And we only do that when we just start, decide to take inventory, you know, what, what is happening in that moment when we're either in conflict or we're relationally dealing with something. What is happening in our body? And then once we learn that there's a lot of Tools to down regulate your nervous system because it is about your nervous system. It's about, you know, the, the feeling of threat. It's the feeling of we are in danger. It's kind of like the old idea of when we have a great adrenaline to lift a car up off somebody. That happens in your body because it's this rush that's happening. You can't control that. No, but you can be so aware of it. And that awareness is then what's able to say, okay, I may not been able to control that rush that was in my body right then, but I can recognize it, I can slow down, which is the biggest piece to me is slowing down and I can start maybe using some tools to downregulate. And whether that is. We want to work with breath work because breath work is one of the best ways to tap into that with your body. Whether you like tapping. You know, using tapping can be so profoundly effective, whether it's getting really attuned with our senses and recognizing, you know, five things we see and hear and going through that process.
Sometimes it's even goes further as to let's go ground oursel and earthing. Let's, let's do journaling, let's meditate. Anything that slows down your body to this place where now you are consciously in charge. It's not the runaway train of the nervous system, it's you being consciously in charge of how your body is showing up and reacting to. And I think that that's the first part because until we can do that, all the other is just knowledge is just, it's just information.
Because that's the first step. Once we can do that, then you can go to the, the next part of being able to see. Okay, so now let's say that I'm in this relationship and I am activated. I'm feeling triggered by a conflict or something that's going on. I feel it in my body.
And so instead of maybe becoming, we'll use avoidant again. Wanting to shut down, withdraw, shut off and really detach from this relationship maybe to the extent of just ending the relationship because it felt too vulnerable, it felt too threatening.
Then you actually had the capability while learning some tools to down regulate, to sit with that, to be able to say, I can do this, I'm not in danger. I can actually have a conversation, I can meet vulnerability with, with my presence and intention and be able to recognize that, that the more you get into that place, the, the more aware you are that you're going to be able to to have a different outcome. Instead of retreating and maybe ending a relationship or, or the moment it gets too good, you have to go. It may not even be conflict. It's just that it's so great, it feels so good. And that's threatening because that would mean that. That this person maybe could disappoint you. Your body might remember of what it felt like to be abandoned. And so when someone gets too close, that abandonment wound is triggered and your body says no.
So we'll do it for you. You don't have to worry consciously about it. We've got this. And you'll pull away. And maybe in the relationship, from that anxious side, we're back to that. Chasing, we're back to that. I. I feel activated because this person, you know, isn't giving me what I think I need or my needs are unmet. And rather than being able to articulate needs, you're going to just simply pursue, pursue, pursue to an extent where you are betraying who you are, who you want to be. And if. And slow down then, and recognize in your body how do you feel? You know, what are those signals being given? And what.
[00:22:43] Speaker B: I always. I always like to remind people that they're called feelings for a reason.
[00:22:47] Speaker C: That's right.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: You feel them in our body. And a lot of people are so detached from that identification of the emotion and what sensation that's evoking in the body.
[00:22:58] Speaker C: And I was working with someone recently and we were doing shaking. And I love shaking because shaking is one of the things that, you know, really loosens people up. It lets you really understand that you can be in charge of how your body feels. And they were doing this, and it was so profound. They were. They had an emotional release to say, I didn't know I could even feel this way.
[00:23:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:23:17] Speaker C: And I think it's such a reminder that so many of us are so detached from our body, we don't even think about it. We just do everything in an automatic way. We're like robots most of the time. And we think everything is up here in our head and we don't recognize that our body is really in the driver's seat most of the time.
[00:23:34] Speaker B: Oh, for sure, for sure.
[00:23:36] Speaker C: And it doesn't have to be that way. We can actually be in charge. Our authentic selves can be in the driver's seat, and we can actually work in tandem with our body being grateful for the beautiful way that it works to protect us, but recognizing we don't need that protection in that way. We want to step into this more secure aspect of a relationship where we can actually make these cognitive decisions and we can actually show up differently.
[00:24:01] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's a total rebalance, I think, of the mind and body because they're both important, but I think the, the, the bridge is a bit severed for a lot of people. You know, they think they've got the information, they're think, they think they're making the best decision for them. But then the body, I love drawing from the imago approach, they refer to it as the triple P effect. You know, that we either pick, perceive or provoke characteristics in our romantic partner that are reminiscent of unresolved issues we had from primary caretakers growing up. And so people will do that. And I point that out to them. They're. I'm like, you're picking. You picked someone who had these characteristics or look at what you're doing to provoke the kind of reaction that you're used to. Or are you just perceiving something that isn't really there, but because that's again, what you're used to. That's the lens you're viewing this person through. And so your body remembers it.
[00:24:53] Speaker C: Your body says, oh wait, that's right. This feels so comfortable for me. Let's do that.
[00:24:57] Speaker B: Exactly, yeah.
[00:24:58] Speaker C: Always go. Body's gonna always go for what it knows. Rather than fear of the unknown and trying something different. It's going to revert over and over again to the same thing.
[00:25:07] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:07] Speaker C: And I see oftentimes this shows up so much from an intimate standpoint too. You know, you have some people who, who utilize sex in a more of a transactional way by choice to avoid those feelings. Or someone might be very performative in sex because that's the way that they feel like they can earn, earn that love. There's so many ways that it can show up, you know, sexually in an intimate aspect as well. It doesn't just, you know, lend itself only to just the, the, the how we're reacting and responding to each other. The interpersonal part, that body part piece continues over to the body part piece of, of our intimate life as well.
[00:25:44] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think that, you know, people who have a more avoidant attachment will have very performative sex because they're detached from the emotional experience. You know, people who have a more anxious attachment style tend to over depend on sex to feel validated and seen in the relationship, which. That inhibits pleasure as well. And so noticing how you're feeling when you're in bed with your partner can also be a really great indicator of what's going on in terms of your attachment style?
[00:26:14] Speaker C: Absolutely. And I think that it's. It's often missed. It's often chalked up to, oh, I just, you know, I didn't really connect with them. It didn't really feel that way. Well, well, did you really not connect with them or is it that you didn't allow yourself to connect because it didn't feel safe? Right. And it goes back to. We are. If we can all agree and come to terms with that, as human beings, we're all searching for emotional safety. If we can learn that and just have that be the basic foundation, then we can look at things a little bit differently.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:44] Speaker C: And I think people are reluctant to do that.
[00:26:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And I love what you said earlier about interest and commitment. What I want everyone listening to, remember, is that these wounds, you know. Yes, individual therapy can take you so far, but I am such a profound believer in the transformational power of a relationship partner as you're doing this healing work. Because that's ultimately where the real work happens and where the real healing starts is in and through your relationship. When both people are committed to it and they're both, you know, working in earnest to rewire the nervous system so that it can respond in a more secure way.
I think that's just magical and can be really, you know, amazing for couples.
[00:27:28] Speaker C: And a lot of people think I need to not be in a relationship so I can heal. I hear that a lot. And it couldn't be further from the truth because we are actually made. We are. We are wired for attachment. We're wired to connect with other people. And so the best opportunity to grow for growth is relationally that that's the best opportunity we're ever going to get. It's like serving up a perfect little, little science experiment for you right there. Yeah. Well, to see. Okay, wait a minute. Let's both start self reflecting. Let's both decide to go to the feeling every time. Instead of just feeling something and keeping it in. Let, let's. Let's share it. Let's be emoting and, and sharing what our feelings are throughout this process. So we can begin to learn how we're feeding off of each other. We can learn how to completely show up differently in the way that we handle conflict. We can decide to show up different sexually because we might now feel safer to be vulnerable. We can explore touch in ways maybe it didn't feel safe to do that before. You know, we can explore sharing big fears because we actually feel the stability with our partner to be vulnerable. So I feel like it's just so many parts that can shift when you're in a relationship if you can make the. Have the interest and make the commitment to grow together.
[00:28:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, it can be really scary for people to do that in a relationship because, yeah, it's kind of the ultimate test of vulnerability. But you know, what I tell people is the prognosis is so much better, like probably a hundredfold if you have a partner involved who is interested and committed just like you are. I mean, I have turned people away because they'll tell me what's going on over the phone and they want to come in by themselves. And I'm like, look, I'll see you. But I want to be very clear with you. Like, I don't think the prognosis is very good if we just do individual work together, like, up to you. But don't say you weren't, you aren't warned.
[00:29:22] Speaker C: And I do the same thing. Thing. I'll say, you know, yes, there's some work that everybody can do individually. We can all maybe do a little bit of a deep dive of our family of origin. We can maybe do an interpersonal deep dive of what were the messages that I got growing up and how did that affect me? Who did I go to for comfort? What does comfort look like? There's some. Some fundamental aspects for sure. Right. Then you. You've hit a wall now.
[00:29:42] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:43] Speaker C: Because now we have to apply it. We have to have some real time way to show that, wow, we can actually feel emotionally safe in a relationship. We can actually build a relationship where we thrive through conf.
We thrive in our intimate life and we actually feel connection because connection is also what everybody wants. You know, we want to feel that and. And to feel as though it's mutual, to feel as though we're not chasing or running, you know, that we actually feel as though we can both be authentic and vulnerable together.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Well, I could talk about this forever, but we are running out of time. Yes. So, Jen, thank you so much for being here with me today. Where can people learn more about you, follow you, and get their hands on your wonderful online resources?
[00:30:29] Speaker C: Absolutely. So our website, Pinkerton Psychotherapy, is for my practice. You can find us there. And then also I have a course that's to do before I do, which is a premarital or for anyone who's been in a relationship for a while. It touches a lot of the basic things we talked about that's available as well. My instagram is Jen B. Pinkerton and you can find me there too. And I'm, I'm happy to to have some people reach out to me.
[00:30:53] Speaker B: Yeah. And I will be sure to link everything in the show notes so that it's easy to find.
And Jen, I, I just feel so excited to see, you know, what's on the horizon for you. I know you got good things coming, so everyone be sure to follow along and stay tuned.
[00:31:07] Speaker C: Thank you so much.
[00:31:08] Speaker B: All right, thanks.
[00:31:09] Speaker A: Until next time, Love and Libido will be taking a break during the upcoming summer months. Be sure to subscribe and follow so that you don't miss new episodes. When I go back online for some season four, you won't want to miss the new and very exciting content I have planned. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to drop me a five star review. Positive ratings like yours help keep the show going. Don't Forget to visit emilyjamia.com to see how you can access dozens of free bonuses when you purchase my new book, Anatomy of Desire, currently available everywhere books are sold. Additionally, you can follow me across all the social media channels at. Dremily Jamia. Thank you for listening.
