Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Like it or not, the way you communicate your sexual needs to your partner can make or break your relationship. Too many missteps and your partner will feel criticized and insecure. But when done well, sexual communication has proven to significantly enhance desire and satisfaction. Today's episode is all about how to do it in a way that lowers the stakes, fosters connection, and maintains a sense of playfulness and fun. I learned so much in today's episode.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: And I cannot wait to share it with you.
[00:00:33] Speaker A: Get a pen and paper because you.
[00:00:35] Speaker B: Will definitely want to take notes.
[00:00:38] Speaker A: I am joined by Laura Lee, a psychologist and sexologist with over 17 years of experience in clinical practice and coaching. She's the director of Blue Space Psychology where she provides individual psychological and sexual therapy. In addition to clinical practice, Laura provides supervision, professional consultation and workshops to healthc care providers. She also offers online courses, education and coaching and is a sought after speaker and trainer. Laura's work has been published in the Journal of Positive Sexuality where she explored how communication impacts sexual desire and satisfaction. Her extensive experience, academic research and practical insights, coupled with her warm and authentic communication style sees that she is a highly respected voice in the fields of psychology and sexuality. Without further ado, let's dive in.
[00:01:35] Speaker B: Laura Lee, welcome to the show.
[00:01:38] Speaker C: Thank you. I'm so thrilled to be here. Thanks Emily.
[00:01:41] Speaker B: I am so happy to have you here and I am so excited to dive into your topic. I've been doing the show for a long time and I feel like a lot of times it's a different voice on a topic maybe I've covered, which is so valuable in its own way. But when I got your email about what specifically you wanted to talk about, I was like, you know, I have not really tapped into this yet on the show, so I think it's going to be really great for my listeners and I'm so excited to dive in with you.
[00:02:13] Speaker C: Oh good. I'm excited too. I love this topic.
[00:02:16] Speaker B: Yes. Now, before we do, I would like to learn a little bit about you, your practice, your journey and how you got to where you are today.
[00:02:26] Speaker C: Yeah, well, I've been a psychologist for about 17 years now and have had my own practice for a while and adore that and adore working with my clients. And I started to notice a few years ago more and more clients talking to me about their relationships and about sex and I noticed a couple of things happening. So I noticed their own kind of anxiety nervousness around that topic and I noticed in myself probably some of my own nervousness too, but also a sense of like I'm not sure how to help. Sex wasn't really covered in my undergrad, almost all my psych postgrad really. And as I started to talk to my colleagues, other healthcare providers, other therapists, even other doctors, I kept hearing the same thing over and over again around sex not really being part of people's training. A general understanding that sexuality and sexual health was important and people wanted to help but weren't really sure how. So I went back and did more study. I did a master's of sexual and reproductive health and psychosexual therapy and really expanded my practice and built my confidence to work in this space. And now I get to work at this lovely intersection of psychology and sex and relationships. And that's what I, that's what I love to do. That's what I love to talk about. I adore it.
[00:03:45] Speaker B: I love it. And wouldn't you agree that finding out about someone's sexuality is such an interesting window into the psyche? I mean, that's what drew me to the field really. Early on. I was studying psychology, didn't really know what I wanted to specialize in until I took a human sexuality class. And I'm like, wow, you can learn a lot about a person by asking them questions about their sex lives and how they understand themselves sexually and their fantasies and all kinds of things.
[00:04:13] Speaker C: Yeah, I do. I totally agree. I think it is so revealing and I actually think it's a beautiful place to meet people too, in terms of the work that we do, like being able to help people experience and embrace and enjoy their sexuality. I've seen it have such far reaching, like impacts. It touches so many areas of their life. And that's been my own experience of my own sexuality is my. And my own journey is that being able to kind of connect to my own sexuality and explore that has had far reaching impacts. So I love.
[00:04:47] Speaker B: So good. So good. Okay, so without further ado, what we are going to talk about today is sexual communication. But you have a really unique angle on it. You know, I have talked about relationship communication and I've talked about sexual communication to an extent on the show, but I, I've never really explored the ways in which sexual communication is different from other kinds of communication and, you know, how and why it, you know, can make us feel more nervous than talking about other things, about the cultural influence and societal influence on the way we talk about sex. You know, all because it's a very obviously important part of maintaining a long term satisfying sex life. Communication is a big player in that. But I Think, number one, a lot of people don't know how to have a conversation with their partner. And number two, don't understand how it's different from other forms of communication. So I'm just going to turn it over to you and let you begin explaining the similarities and differences.
[00:05:56] Speaker C: Yeah. You know what got me interested in this topic of sexual communication in the first place was I felt like it was one of those things that everyone kind of goes on about how sexual communication is important. Right. And I knew that. And anecdotally I felt like we kind of understand that it's a good thing and everyone sort of talks about sexual communication being really important. But I even felt like I didn't really fully understand what that actually meant. And I realized people had like a, a frame or a script that they put around sexual communication that sounded really scary. I think people imagined sitting down with their partner and like turning the TV off and looking at each other and being like, we need to have a conversation about our sex life, which sounds so anxiety inducing. I feel that in my own body when I say it, I'm like, oh.
[00:06:42] Speaker B: That would be and, and unsexy.
[00:06:45] Speaker C: And unsexy. Unfun too. That doesn't sound like a huge amount of fun. Right. So I got really curious about what sexual communication actually was and also how like how it has an impact. What is it about sexual communication that has to be good and working to really positively impact our sex life? So that's the research I did and that's the part of the paper I got published. And what I discovered about sexual communication and how it's different to non sexual or general communication was really interesting. I really uncovered that the topic of sex for people in relationships, but just people in general is that it is incredibly high stakes. It feels really high stakes. It's a really fraught topic because it feels really high risk. And what I mean by that is it feels like I am bumping up against some really, some real pain points. If I talk about sex. I'm bumping up against the possibility of being rejected, judged, abandoned, feeling ashamed, feeling hurt, hurting someone I care about.
So I'm, I'm coming into this topic that is really high risk. And I'm also coming into the topic really ill equipped because no one teaches us how to talk about sex. So most people start having sex not knowing how to do that either, but also not knowing how to talk about it. And that's certainly been my experience most of my adult life was having sex but not really talking about the sex that I was having. So you've got a topic that I'm unskilled to talk about, a topic that feels really high stakes. And then we've got kind of the cultural overlay of that, which is that most of us have grown up in an environment where sex is still, it's still a really sex negative culture. It's still really taboo to talk about.
So that's kind of the overlay of what I'm experiencing when I might be trying to talk about sex. And then I'm in the room with my partner who's got all of their own stuff too, all of their own pain points and fears and shame and family of origin stuff and cultural context stuff. So you try to navigate these really high stakes, high risk, scary, unfamiliar, unskilled kind of topic. So that's some of the, that's some of the things that I really noticed about sexual communication. The final thing I would say on the differences between sexual and non sexual communication is the extra work that is required to cultivate a really safe, secure space to counteract all those things I just said. And that is the work that needs to be done in an ongoing capacity in a relationship forever, regardless of how long that relationship is. And I should clarify here, I'm talking about even, even if you're having sex with someone you've met that day, you can still cultivate a culture of safety and trust. And I care about how this experience is for you. I care about how I impact you. I'm interested in your preferences, desires, boundaries, limits that can be cultivated regardless of the length of the relationship. But it is a fundamental part of people appraising their sexual communication as effective is did I feel safe to assert my needs and express myself.
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[00:10:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I love that. I mean, you're right. It is laden with so much that we bring in from cultural and societal Influences and, you know, to your point about the importance of creating a safe space and how paramount that is when we're talking about sex compared to just about anything else is a huge piece of the puzzle. Can you speak a little bit more on how people can do that even for a one night stand? Like, what would that look like?
[00:11:15] Speaker C: A really important part of understanding what sexual communication is actually involves, is what you're asking me about. There is the content. So sexual communication has a process, which is all the other things we just spoke about. The cultivation of safety and security. That's the process of talking about sex. And then there's the content, which is what we actually say. Right. You know, in any kind of relationship, regardless of length. I think what's really nice starting point actually, and maybe feels a bit more accessible and safe is just to check willingness to have a sexual dialogue from the other person. So that can look like I want to talk about the sex we're about to have, all the sex we've been having, or the fact that I want us to be great lovers to each other for many more decades to come. I know this feels maybe kind of awkward. Are you up for that? Like, is there, is there willingness for that? Like, are you up for that? And the initial conversation might not even go any further than that. It might just be checking willingness and openness and also checking for kind of comfort, you know? Do you feel a bit nervous too? I feel a bit nervous and awkward. We haven't really done this before, but I'm kind of up for it. Are you kind of up for it?
[00:12:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:12:22] Speaker C: And then that's it. That could be it. That's it for the first conversation. So that first conversation, particularly in a sort of longer term relationship, I'm always saying to people that first conversation, particularly if you've never done this before, is not to raise issues or solve problems. It's just a, like, are we, are we up for this? Are we up for kind of talking about this? That's it.
[00:12:43] Speaker B: I love that. And it aligns with what I tell people when they're like, well, how do I talk about it? Thought it, feeling awkward. And I'm like, lead with the awkwardness. Tell them yes, tell them it's awkward for you. I mean, just putting that out there is like the ultimate icebreaker because it's pretty much awkward and uncomfortable for everybody. I mean, look, I am a sex therapist and sometimes I still feel awkward bringing things up to my partner or, you know, when my kids ask me questions, I'm like, okay, Emily, like, take a deep breath, you can do this. You've been trained for this more than the average person. But it's still evokes that, you know, reaction in me. So, you know, it's. I, I think that's so important to remind people whether you're talking to your partner or your kid or whomever that it's okay to say, look, I am so uncomfortable with this, but are you willing to listen and are we gay?
[00:13:32] Speaker C: Yeah, that, yeah, absolutely. And it's so disarming to do that. And you hear that here, you hear you and I right now laughing about it. And sometimes my clients will say to me like, oh, when we try to talk about sex, it's awkward. And we laugh and I'm like, that's okay, like laugh. And it doesn't have to be this like heavy, serious, emotional kind of topic all the time. I understand it will be sometimes, but sometimes it's funny and awkward. And of course real life sex is sometimes funny and awkward. So it makes sense that the communication is going to be too.
[00:14:06] Speaker B: It's, it's such a mirror for sure. I think that's such an excellent point. What tips do you have to keep it a little more light hearted or fun even if people are just like, God, I just don't want it to be too serious or heavy because I do think keeping it a bit more lighthearted can make it feel like the stakes are lower as opposed to like you open, like we need to have a conversation about our sex life. It's just kind of like dun, dun, dun.
[00:14:34] Speaker C: Absolutely. So exactly as you just said, this is what I found in the research is that the more frequent and free flowing the dialogue can be about sex, the lower stakes it feels right. So that's what the research tells us. People appraised their, in the research I looked at, people appraised their sexual communication as more effective but also like easier, less, like less flooding, less overwhelm was happening if it was happening more frequently. So I like to share with people that my, in my relationship, my partner and I talk about sex every day. And I think when people hear that, they imagine us sitting on the couch looking at each other, not doing anything else, just like. But no. And so the, the wording that I use that I think helps people kind of wrap their heads around this is we nurture our sexual connection every day or the sexual part of our relationship every day. And so what that can look like, and actually what that mostly looks like is not a heavy dialogue back and forth conversation. It looks like Expressing desire, expressing attraction, flirtation, sending text messages, maybe sexting, maybe touching each other in a flirty way, maybe expressing fondness for a memory. So a, that was really fun when we did that the other day. Or fondness for something. I'm looking forward to time alone, we've got this weekend or a place that we're going, or recreating something we've done before. So these interactions, as you can see, they can be quick, they can be seconds, and they also vary in terms of degree of spiciness. But they are about keeping that erotic part of, and the erotic and sexual and sensual part of our relationship alive and front of mind. And we decided pretty early, pretty early on in our relationship that that was important to us. And so we intentionally visit that part of our relationship daily, even if it is for a few seconds just a flirty comment or a show of appreciation or like, you know, your partner walks in the room and you're like, oh, you look really good today, like you really hot right now. And that could be it. So that is sexual communication. It is. It is sexual.
[00:16:54] Speaker B: It absolutely is.
Can you speak a little bit more about the research that you did? Just that, you know, I and our listeners can kind of have a framework of everything that informed.
[00:17:05] Speaker C: Yes, absolutely. So I did a review of the most recent literature to look at exactly how sexual communication impacts both sexual desire and sexual satisfaction.
So that's what I was really curious about. And the second question that I looked at, but it only came up once I started doing the research and realized it was the thing was how does it impact those things separate to general communication? Because what was coming out in the research was that couples could appraise their general communication as really effective, but their sexual communication could stand alone in terms of degree of effectiveness and impact the relationship in a different way. And my main kind of finding was that those three factors of sexual communication, sexual desire and sexual satisfaction had like a. A multi directional relationship. They impacted each other. And what was super cool was that sexual communication had a really protective function for both of those other parts of the relationship. So people reported that they were more likely to have the type of sex that they wanted to have, have high degree of sexual satisfaction, and they were more likely to experience more desire or want for the sex they were having if the sexual communication was also appraised as effective. And that could be quite subjective. Like people could appraise their sexual communication as effective, but that didn't mean necessarily that they were talking about it every day. So that's the really that was the really cool part, actually, because there's a real cultural component to this. Right around. Around the world and between ages and genders, there were lots of different factors that meant sexual communication was deemed effective or good by somebody. So that was the really cool part too, that couples could find their own flow with this stuff. There isn't like a minimum or a benchmark you have to meet. You could find your own flow that works for you and it can look after your sexual satisfaction, your sexual desire, which was really cool.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: I love that. Now what? So far, we've spoken primarily about the importance of, you know, being flirtatious, sending a sex message, giving your partner positive feedback, reflecting on a really fond memory you had or something you're looking forward to. What about when there's something you don't like or you feel like there's an area that has some room for improvement or, you know, like, what about talking about the. The bad or the more difficult components?
[00:19:42] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So we talked before about how if that com. If that dialogue about sex is. Is ongoing, it does reduce the stakes. And I do think that's really important. And often people are coming to therapy if they've got a concern with their sexual relationship, they're coming to therapy to resolve an issue. Right. And if they've not been talking about sex before, I find that to be a less than helpful place to start. So as I said before, that first step is that openness, that willingness to talk about it more.
[00:20:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:16] Speaker C: We also talked before about this cultivation of, like, safety and trust. And I really encourage people to focus on building those things separate to sex. So building safety and trust throughout the relationship is an ongoing part. So there's other things to do in the relationship ongoing. If, though we are bringing up a topic with our partner of something that we. That isn't working for us with regards to our sex life, number one, I say if we're going to do that, I think it's more accurate to say when we're going to do that because I think that's. I think we may as well presume that's going to happen. And that is because sexuality is such an evolving thing for all of us, it's going to change across the lifespan. Something I was into yesterday, I'm not going to be into tomorrow. That's just the reality of. Of how our sexuality works. So I think even that framing up within ourselves of something being a problem is really important to reframe for ourselves before we go and verbalize it to our partner. A really Lovely tool that I like to arm people with to do. This is about curiosity.
So this question of what else is a lovely question to ask ourselves and something I like to explore with my clients. That if there is something that's like not working for us or we're not really into or that's bothering us, getting really curious about that within ourselves and bringing that curiosity to our partner in the dialogue. So if we take an example which might be around something we want more of. Right. Whether that's frequency or a type of sex, let's just say something we want more of. The curiosity within yourself could be, what is it that I want more of? What is it that I'm trying to experience? When have I had that before and how did it feel? How do I imagine it would feel to have more of that now? Why do I think I would like that? How might that impact me? So lots of questions for ourselves and then taking that curiosity and showing it to our partner. You know, I've been thinking about that I would really love more of X, Y, Z. And I've been thinking about that. I've been asking myself and exploring that within myself. And here's what I've come up with. Here's what I'd really love to experience more of. And I wanted to share that with you. What do you think about this? Like, so it's, it's leading with question and curiosity and expression, exploration and expansion rather than the shutting down and the we've got a problem and we need to find a solution.
[00:22:39] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:22:40] Speaker C: I think that that framing limits us. It. It closes things down rather than opening them up.
[00:22:46] Speaker A: The Anatomy of Desire audiobook is finally here and I am so excited to offer you a sneak peek. Listen up for a 40 second preview. If you like what you hear, be sure to order it on audible or wherever you listen to. Audiobook. And don't forget, audiobook purchases are also eligible for all the free bonuses on my website. Visit anatomyofdesire.com after completing your purchase for all the details. Enjoy the sample.
[00:23:13] Speaker D: I started paying closer attention to the language my clients were using to describe the sex they wanted.
Words like effortless, absorbed and electric stood out.
They wanted to feel lost in the moment, forgetting their woes and insecurities.
I spent hours poring over client notes, going back through sessions in my head and listening to people with the larger questions in mind.
What were we all searching for in the erotic realm and was it realistically possible to attain?
And then it clicked. They wanted to experience a state of flow.
[00:23:56] Speaker B: And I Think, Laura, what you just said is so key that I just want to reflect it back because I don't want it to get lost on anyone listening. It's. It's that second question. Okay. I've identified the thing I want more of. Why? Why do I want more of that? And I think your partner is far more likely to be receptive to what you have to say. And remember what you said if you include that part of it. You know, I would love to spend more time kissing because that makes me feel really connected to you emotionally or, you know, whatever it may be. I think it's more likely to land with that piece of the puzzle.
[00:24:37] Speaker C: Yes. Yes. If I take that example, like, I would like for us to kiss more because I've noticed that really makes me feel really connected or really increases my arousal. I notice my orgasms are stronger when we spent more time kissing. That's going to land far more than just, oh, you always rush to the next.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:24:56] Speaker C: That is such a different frame. And I also feel that difference in my body. Like, that doesn't feel as, as like panicky. Like I've got a problem to solve that feels like exciting and opens things up. It's beautiful to say that. Why?
[00:25:12] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Now what about something you would like less of or, you know, maybe your partner really does something that you do not like? Like how do you communicate that to them in a similar way?
[00:25:25] Speaker C: Yeah, I would, I would again lead with this curiosity, but also go to your experience. So I, you know, these I statements leading with your feelings and your experience rather than what they are doing. Yeah. So I've noticed something, you know, that might look like I've noticed something happening for me in my body when we're doing X, Y, Z. And I've noticed the difference when we are doing this other thing that my body seems to really enjoy. And I've been kind of thinking about whatever it is I've been noticing how my body changes or how the response changes. And. And I'd love to explore more of this over there. So this, how we frame this and our tone and the impact of how I would land really matters. It really matters and we should care about that. I want us all to care about how our words land. And I think that this, this beautiful frame of the, hey, this is how the experience is for me rather than you're doing XYZ something wrong is a really nice language skill to bring to any conversation, frankly.
[00:26:34] Speaker B: I totally agree. And I think the same goes, you know, whether it's expressing like A new desire or preference or any kind of new information. Again, coming back to that, why is it important for you?
Just deepens the conversation and softens the whole dialog.
[00:26:52] Speaker C: Yes. Yeah, absolutely it does. It's a lovely frame to bring to any emotionally charged conversation, not just one.
[00:26:59] Speaker B: Yeah. Now you write about the different components of sexual communication and one of those is self disclosure. What is your opinion on how much or little one should disclose about maybe things from their sexual past or you know, how I think every relationship is a little bit different and I am of the mind that our partners do not need to know every nitty gritty detail about our past.
Sometimes people will press for that information and I always remind my, you know, clients that, you know, what happened in their past is sacred and personal and if they don't want to share it, they don't have to. But talk about the role of self disclosure in sexual communication because I think on the flip side it could potentially inform or add context to the other components. So what are your thoughts?
[00:27:51] Speaker C: Yes. So sexual self disclosure refers to the sharing of our own experiences, desires, boundaries, limits, fantasies, like all aspects, you know, past, present and future. So that's the sexual self disclosure part. The sexual self disclosure to be a positive and effective part of our communication, it is really key that it is received with warmth and attention and curiosity and non judgment. So for sexual self disclosure to be effective, it has to be this two way process, right. In terms of how much we reveal about ourselves. The thing that I have noticed within my clients, but also within myself, is that when I've gone pressing and digging for more information, it was usually driven by some sort of anxiety, right? So some sort of desire to like if I could just find that piece of information or, or hidden thing that will soothe me at this moment, that will give me some relief in this moment. And that has worked for me approximately zero times.
Never soothed my anxiety. But I really understand and I really empathize with that desire to go digging, thinking that if I can just find that one piece information, it will soothe me. So I really encourage people to, to pause here and check in with themselves about if they are going looking for information, thinking about why. And sexual self disclosure to be really effective for people, to be deemed effective for people varies in terms of the quantity of information. But the research that I looked at did tell us that the quantity of kind of past experiences for that to be effective, you know, the sharing of past experiences, we didn't need a high degree of detail.
It was typically appraised as Preferable for people to not have a high degree of detail. The detail, though, interestingly, the detail that is helpful about past experience is for our partner, is actually about their experience. So details that weren't helpful were about other people, other sexual partners they'd had, or other kind of sex acts, specific acts that they had done. But what was actually deemed helpful was the person talking about their experiences. Like past experiences where I felt really ex. You know, really, really safe. Or I was able to really relax.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: With the current partner. Not with other partners, you're saying.
[00:30:30] Speaker C: Preferably with the current partner, but not necessarily. It was still helpful to hear about your partner's experiences, but it was from their own perspective. So it wasn't about. I had this experience with this person and this person did this, and that was really hard. It was more like I've had past experiences where I was able to relax. And what I noticed was really helpful for me was if, you know, I had a lot of privacy or a lot of time or the room was.
[00:30:58] Speaker B: Really warm or describing the context.
[00:31:01] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:31:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Talking about maybe how a past experience made them feel emotionally and what the context was to help them with that feeling. Okay.
[00:31:12] Speaker C: That's right. Rather than what I actually did.
[00:31:15] Speaker B: Got it.
[00:31:15] Speaker C: Or what the other person did. So, yeah, there's lots to be learned that was beneficial in the research I looked at when the person was able to share their own. Yep. Their own experiences, their own context. And that could then be useful. Right. That could then be useful to tap into in the current relationship. It wasn't just a looking back for kind of no reason just to go digging. It was more like a. I've noticed for myself, I'm able to really relax when, you know, as we said before, when there's been a lot of kissing or when the room is really warm or when it's the morning rather than night time, like whatever it is, so that that knowledge is then being brought into the current relationship. That's when it's helpful.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: That makes a lot of sense. What tips do you have, Laura, to help kind of down, regulate and calm the nervous system before having these conversations? Because I think that's what stops a lot of people. It's like they have a thought or feeling they're dying to express to their partner, but they just can't get over the hump to put it out there.
[00:32:20] Speaker C: What.
[00:32:21] Speaker B: What's your advice?
[00:32:23] Speaker C: I have a couple of really practical tips. My favorite, and when I use myself is to be having a conversation like this when you're going for a walk.
[00:32:32] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:32:32] Speaker C: Which we, yes, we know is really regulating movement is one of the biggest bangs for our buck in terms of regulating ourselves. So I really encourage that kind of movement. You also get the eye contact break, which can be really helpful for people. So I love that. I love. When you're going for a walk. Choosing your moment in general, though, is going to be really important. Do it obviously when you've both got privacy, time, energy, not right as you're falling asleep or your partner's clearly distracted or stressed about something. Like, pick your moment, acknowledge your own nervousness as we talked about before.
Take a break if you need to in the conversation, but communicate that. But actually something else I love to do, and I use this myself in my own relationship. If I notice I'm starting to feel a bit overwhelmed, I will interrupt that sense of overwhelm by doing one of two things. I will reach to touch my partner, even if we're in conflict. I find that incredibly soothing for my nervous system. So just a gentle touch. And the other thing I will do is I will ask a question. And I am genuinely curious. So it's not. It's still genuine. It's still a genuine question, but it buys me some time. It just buys me a moment to, like, I can just listen. I can attune to what they're saying. I can notice my own breath. I can just. It just gives me a moment. It just gives me a moment.
[00:33:55] Speaker B: So, question about sex or about anything?
[00:34:00] Speaker C: I reckon it can be about anything.
But I think what's really important is that the question is just genuinely deliberate. That's what's really important.
I think it's also really nice in that moment to express the overwhelm to your partner. Like, oh, I. I'm. I'm noticing this happening in my body. Right?
[00:34:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's.
[00:34:20] Speaker C: We are, generally speaking, the way we live at the moment, not really doing a great job of tuning into our bodies. Right. We're just. We're just not. And our bodies are giving us so much information all the time about. About whether we're feeling safe, about whether we need something different. So this practice of. Of noticing it and verbalizing it out loud to our partner can be a really lovely practice of honoring what's happening in our body. And I don't know if you've ever had the experience. I certainly have. Where even just putting words to it seems to soothe it. Even just saying to my partner, like, oh, oh, I can feel like my shoulders tensing or I can feel my heart racing. I'm Feeling I'm hot. I'm like. And, like, sweaty. I'm nervous. And even just verbalizing that. And he goes. And he's like, it's okay, I'm here. Or he says, me too. Or whatever he says it just soothes it immediately. Relief.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: It's no longer like an elephant in the room. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, asking that question, you know, are you open to hearing what I have to say? I mean, the only answer is yes, is an enthusiastic yes. And if it's anything other than that, well, that's giving you some other information. I mean, a no. Who's gonna say no? You know, yes, absolutely no. I mean, then you need to kind of maybe stick with some general relationship therapy first. And then you're clear that you don't have a safe foundation coming back to what we were talking about earlier. But if you put it out there. Hey, I have some stuff I'd like to share. It's uncomfortable for me, but are you open to hearing that? Like, can I talk to you about it? You know, and can you remain curious? You know, I want to make sure that I don't feel judged or criticized. Like, are we good? You know, and just ask. I mean, they're gonna say yes. If they love and care.
[00:36:06] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: They're gonna want to know yes.
[00:36:09] Speaker C: They're gonna. That's right. You're gonna get a yes. The other part to that is there's going to be missteps in the conversation you get. You're gonna say something kind of awkward or it's going to land wrong. Because our communication goes through gates. You know, I talk to my clients about communication goes through gates. There's four gates to communication. There's. There's what I mean and feel. So at what I intend to say. That's the first gate. Then the second gate is what I actually say. And then the third gate is what my partner hears me say. And then the fourth gate is how they make meaning of what they've just heard. So by the time it's gone through those four gates, God knows how. God knows how it's changed. Right? So y. I. Yeah. So I often, if I am trying to express myself and I don't feel like I'm saying it very clearly or I don't feel like my partner's understanding, I will ask him to repeat back what he's kind of heard. And sometimes how he's made meaning of what I was meaning is just.
[00:37:01] Speaker B: Is wild the difference and, like, instantaneous. I mean, like, literally said just Said the thing and they have completely attached a different meaning to it.
[00:37:12] Speaker C: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Because of their own stuff, right? Because we've all got our own stuff. So it's really useful to kind of ask for that clarification. And you're allowed to ask for a do over. Like, you're allowed to say that. That's not what I intended at all. Can I go again? Like, let me try again?
[00:37:29] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:37:31] Speaker C: So that's part of this too. It's, it's the clunkiness and the awkwardness and the missteps aren't something to fear. In fact, they're really something to embrace. They're going to happen. They happen to all of us. They happen to me. I'm sure they happen to you, you, Emily, and they'll happen to everyone.
[00:37:45] Speaker B: Oh, for sure, for sure.
[00:37:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: And you know, I'm just thinking as you're talking, you know, for, for partner B, the one who has just heard from partner A, that they would like to have a conversation about their sex life. I want to recognize that, you know, it's normal for the automatic defense to go up and it's normal to feel like, oh my God, what have I done wrong? Because whenever someone says, even if they try to soften it and be as gentle as possible about it, to. To be faced with, you know, a conversation about something as potentially high stakes as your sex life can feel a bit threatening. What I like to remind them is, you know, we are not talking about like one person's needs versus another person's needs, you know, or your sex versus their sex. You are collaborators in a shared sexual experience. You are on the same team. And it's important to remember too that one person in the relationship may be a bit more sensitive to context or environment. And that is not personal to you. It is just individual differences. And, you know, learning to work with that will ultimately, I think, cultivate a really beautiful sexual experience.
I think a lot of times we have to depersonalize it so that we don't slip into those automatic defenses.
[00:39:06] Speaker C: I really love that frame. It makes me think about two then, you know, in those initial conversations, we talked before about acknowledging the awkwardness, but it's also really nice to acknowledge the possibility and the actually the excitement of, like, even though I'm feeling really nervous about this and saying this to your partner, even though I'm feeling really nervous and awkward in this moment, I'm also kind of excited because I feel like there's lots for us to discover together and I'm really up for that. And I really care about both of us having great sexual experience together like that. You know, that kind of fills me with excitement. And I think that would be lovely to bring into the conversation that you're having with your partners, which could be like, I'm, I'm really excited to see what we can discover together.
[00:39:50] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I think another. I'm just thinking of alternative ways to open the conversation. I almost think, tell me what you think about this. I almost think even better than saying, like, I, you know, feel a little bit awkward about this. Are you open to hearing what I have to say or can you, you know, is this a safe place for me to put my thoughts and feelings out there? Instead say, you know, I'm a little uncomfortable about this, but I know that I can trust you. I know.
[00:40:18] Speaker C: Lovely.
[00:40:19] Speaker B: That you're not going to judge me and I'm going to put it out there even though it's uncomfortable for me because you know what they're going to want to then prove.
[00:40:27] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. Like, you're right.
[00:40:29] Speaker B: I'm.
[00:40:30] Speaker C: Yes, I am safe. I am non judgmental. I'll show you. Yeah, that's how I would react. I feel that in my body.
[00:40:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Like kind of it, it offer. It opens with a compliment. Like right off the bat you are complimenting them. Like, I know I can trust you. Of course I can trust you. You know, and that's going to make them feel really good.
[00:40:48] Speaker C: Yes, I love that. I love that approach. You've also mentioned before depersonalizing it, which I think is a really nice strategy. And I do talk to my clients about using resources to communicate. So. Hey, I, I listen to this podcast today. I want to share it with you. And it can be anything. It can be a meme. Like, it doesn't matter. We communicate in so many different ways. And that does help depersonalize it to be like, oh, I heard this podcast or I read this article and I'd love to share it with you and see what you think is a far less threatening approach than I want to talk to you about our sex life. So using these kind of resources and tools and bringing those in and bringing those into the dialogue ongoing can really inject some safety. It's a lovely, safe container to be talking about the topic in a depersonalized way. But there's also really fun tools out there. You know, there's like, yes, no, yes, no, maybe lists and all sorts of fun tools out there to make this dialogue fun. You can gamify this sometimes too. Like it can be really fun.
[00:41:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot of fun to be had and I think that's what we need to remember.
[00:41:53] Speaker C: Absolutely.
[00:41:54] Speaker B: Well, Laura, this was so lovely speaking with you. I am so excited to air this episode. I know that it's going to get such positive feedback. This is such an important component of sexual desire and satisfaction as we've talked about and as your research has proven, yet one that is such a struggle for people and can kind of make or break a sexual relationship. So there's so many valuable tools and nuggets. Thank you so much for all your work and for being here with me today.
[00:42:23] Speaker C: Oh, it's my pleasure. I really enjoyed it. Thank you for your time.
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Where can people follow you, learn more about you and stay connected.
[00:42:31] Speaker C: Yeah, people can find me at my probably my website which is lauralee.com au and on Instagram at Laura Lee Sexology.
[00:42:40] Speaker B: Awesome. I will be sure to link everything in the show notes so it's easy to find. Again, thank you for being here with me today and I look forward to staying in touch.
[00:42:49] Speaker A: Love and Libido will be taking a break during the upcoming summer months. Be sure to subscribe and follow so that you don't miss new episodes. When I go back online for season four, you won't want to miss the new and very exciting content I have planned. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to drop me a five star review. Positive ratings like yours help keep the show going. Don't Forget to visit emilyjamia.com to see how you can access dozens of free bonuses when you purchase my new book, Anatomy of Desire, currently available everywhere books are sold. Additionally, you can follow me across all the social media channels at dremilydamia. Thank you for listening.
