Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: I mean, I think that a lot of people, for them to be turned on, it really helps to feel like the person that they're with desires them. We've been told that fat people are not desirable.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Fat is not a dirty word. It's not a bad word, and it shouldn't have negative connotations, but it still does. We live in a society that celebrates thin bodies and judges fat bodies. But the fact is everyone, regardless of their body type, is entitled to experience love, connection, and great sex. Today, I'm joined by an expert on fat sexuality to challenge myths, break down stereotypes, and offer hope to people struggling to accept their big body. And note to smaller people listening. You can learn a thing or two from today's episode, so stick around.
Tamara Pincus is a licensed clinical social worker and asex certified sex therapist who runs the Pincus center, which offers individual and relationship therapy, coaching, and sex education. She specializes in working with fat, kinky, polyamorous, and LGBTQ clients. Tamara has been working in the field of sex therapy since 2011 and since then has built a practice with a team of ten. Tamara is passionate about racial justice, fat justice, and LGBTQ rights. She also co authored a book titled it's called Polyamory, coming out about your non monogamous relationships with Rebecca Hiles. She lives in Virginia with her partner, two teenagers, and two pet snakes. Hello, Tamara, and welcome to the show.
[00:01:36] Speaker A: Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: So happy to have you here. I am so glad that you reached out to me or responded to my query about coming on the show, because this is a topic I have wanted to discuss for a long time and just have not been able really to find the right guests to discuss it. But this is an area that you focus on, and so we have a lot to unpack as it relates to this category.
[00:01:58] Speaker A: Absolutely. I'm looking forward to it.
[00:02:00] Speaker B: So before we dive in, I think we need to talk about the word fat, because I think a lot of people hear the word fat and they think it is not politically correct or it's a dirty word or it's a bad word. And I'd love to hear from you if you could just talk to people a little bit about the word and maybe some of the connotations that really fit versus don't fit these days.
[00:02:23] Speaker A: I mean, I think people are reclaiming the word fat in the same way that they reclaimed the word queer. Fat is just a descriptor of a way the body stores energy. It's not even necessarily size because some people will weigh the same as the person who you think of as fat and just be incredibly muscular. So that is just a way you describe the way our body stores energy. And yet somehow it has gotten all of these negative associations. People associate fat people with being stupid, with being lazy, with all of these negative things. And if fat becomes this word that is so terrible that it is completely unspeakable, and then you are a person that is fat, what does that mean? What is it like to walk around in the world knowing that, like, you are so bad, you are literally unspeakable? And I feel like the alternatives, you know, obese or plus size, like, I don't think they're necessarily helping.
[00:03:23] Speaker B: Where do you think some of these negative connotations have come from? Because if you look back historically at art, for example, during the Renaissance period, like, you see, Fuller figured people depicted in a way that was ideal. And a lot of times, historically, being fat or having a larger body was associated with health and having more resources. Like, where did this shift happen in history?
[00:03:48] Speaker A: So this is actually really clear. And there's a book about it called fearing the black body by Sabrina Springs. Anti fatness is ultimately tied in with anti blackness. Black people have always been fatter and had their fat distributed differently. And we have used that, you know, in cooperation with racism, to say that fat people are bad and to say that black people are not as good as white people. It's remarkably clear. I also would like to go back to this vision that we have of this ideal history where fatness was embraced. You know, fatness has gone in and out of fashion over the millennia, and it's not always been so super clear that fatness was great until 1800. That's just not how fatness has been written about. But I think you have to read a lot more detailed histories to really understand the history of fatness and how it has worked. But, yeah, it is very valued in a lot of cultures, and throughout history, it's often associated with goddesses and particularly goddesses of fertility.
I like to sort of bring that back.
Think about fat goddesses and the idea that fatness can be beautiful, but it's a fight to do.
[00:05:03] Speaker B: And I feel like right now, there are so many mixed messages about different body types, in particular fat body types, because on the one hand, I feel like we're right on the cusp of seeing different size models, for example, wearing clothing. When you're browsing online shopping, you are seeing a surge of people embracing larger backsides, maybe in part thanks to the Kardashians, you know? But then on the other hand, you've got and people now turning towards that to get thinner. And so where do you think the current feeling is today as it relates to having a bigger body?
[00:05:40] Speaker A: I mean, I think we continue to marginalize bigger bodies and to say that bigger bodies are less helpful and to encourage people to lose weight. Clearly, the Ozempic craze is part of that. I mean, I think what is really disturbing is that we continue to completely ignore the science of weight loss. So even with Ozempic, people lose about five to 10% of their body weight, which for somebody like me, is not a lot. For viewer reference, I am super fat. I'm a very large person. Cool with that. So it doesn't make you lose a whole lot of weight. If you look at the studies, the studies are mostly done over the course of two years. And as the studies are wrapping up, you can see that people's weights are actually going back up. So if you look at what the longer term trajectory is for people on Ozempic, they're not actually having sustained weight loss. And then if you look at all the other forms of weight loss, which somebody like me, pretty much every time I go into the doctor, unless I say, please don't have this conversation with me, they will tell me that I need to lose weight. And I've done that. I've done that many, many times, starting from being a very small child. And I've always gained back more weight. And the science tells us that that's what happened. So I don't think that a person would even be able to be as big as I am without going through cycles of basically starvation and having my metabolism slow weight down. So, like, the amount of calories it takes to sustain a body that has done significant weight loss is much less than the amount of calories it would have taken to sustain somebody who was that same size but had never dieted. So what we're doing is just incredibly harmful. And then you go, I'm sorry, I'm.
[00:07:22] Speaker B: Granting, but no, I want to hear it. And people need to know for sure. Rant away.
[00:07:27] Speaker A: The last thing that people are going to recommend to somebody who's my size is weight loss surgery. And the thing about weight loss surgery is it causes an amount of side effects. You know, you're basically cutting out a healthy organ or parts of a healthy organ, and as a result, you have people having malnutrition, you have people having vitamin deficiencies, shortened lifespan. So if you say that you're doing this for health, you don't actually live longer, and your quality of life is greatly reduced by having constant diarrhea and not being able to eat food. And the other thing that happens, and this is a thing I've seen so many times and people don't talk about it, is that a lot of people who've had weight loss surgery gain the weight back. So imagine being a person who's, you know, like, 400 pounds. You have been through weight loss surgery. You can only eat about a cup of food at a time. You think that the reason that you have gained the weight back is that you did something wrong. So you have this terrible quality of life. You still walk around in the world with people looking at you being like, oh, my God, that person's so lazy. Why won't they lose weight? And they've literally done everything they can possibly do. And the other thing is exercise, as it turns out, and this is wild. Like, we think of exercise is a thing that works to lose weight, but exercise doesn't actually generally cause weight loss unless you also do a restricted diet. But the way you get, you know, again, as, like, a super fat person, I go to the gym pretty regularly, and that gets all tied in with, like, am I doing that on some level for some social performativity to be, like, the good fat person? I mean, and there's a part of that. I mean, I'm not going to pretend that's not in my brain, but also, I feel better when I do it. I can walk around comfortably, which it's really easy for me to get to a point where mobility is harder if I'm not working out all the time. And also, I really enjoy it. And I do think there's something for me weirdly fun about being at the gym with my glorifying obesity t shirt on, dancing around, and just, like, let people stare. I'm cool with that. It's fun for me, at the end.
[00:09:26] Speaker B: Of the day, exercise, we know, has tons of mental health benefits and sexual health benefits. So I think it's a good thing to do regardless of of your size and what the motivation is, right.
[00:09:36] Speaker A: But it's really hard to go to these spaces that are clearly not built for you to get comments because I cannot tell you how many weird comments I've gotten in the gym. I think people mostly don't talk to me, but there have been times people have come up to me and be like, you're so inspiring. Or you go, girl, you sweat. I'm like, yeah, thank you for noticing how sweaty I am. Why is this the thing for public comment.
[00:10:00] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:10:01] Speaker A: And people saying, like, I'm so proud of you. Are you not proud of every other person in this show? Like, I'm seriously.
[00:10:08] Speaker B: So as it relates to sex, body image plays a big role. Can you talk more broadly some of the ways our body image affects our sexuality and desire and pleasure?
[00:10:20] Speaker A: I mean, I think that a lot of people, for them to be turned on, it really helps to feel like the person that they're with desires them. We've been told that fat people are not desirable. So a lot of people have this internal messaging going on. And oftentimes people gain weight over the lifespan, basically, until, like, most people will slowly gain weight over the course of their life, until they get, I don't know exactly what the age is, but, like, ten, like, significantly past menopause. Like, yeah, when you're into the very elderly, they'll start to lose weight. Most people will continue to gain weight over time. And so there's this idea that people think that their partners find them less and less attractive, and then some partners do say that, and let me tell you, they are not fun.
So, yeah, that's the thing. A lot of people engage in this thing we call spectatoring, which will be like, when they're having sex, but instead of, like, being in their body and paying attention to the feelings, they will be thinking about, what does my partner see when they see me? And be really worried about their appearance and their weight.
[00:11:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I think that when we engage in spectatoring and we're watching ourselves as if we're in the third person, which inhibits our ability to be fully present and immersed in the moment, we can't really experience pleasure. We can't experience that feeling of connectedness to our partner. And I think the media does absolutely nothing to help people have a better body image. Whether you're a little bit, quote unquote overweight, which you're saying is not the best way to describe it, or you are a fat person. What we see in the media are thinner bodied people. And in porn especially, again, we see people who have completely unrealistic bodies. What is your advice to someone to begin embracing their fatness so that they can fully experience the spectrum of sexual pleasure?
[00:12:11] Speaker A: So I actually want to step back a bit because I agree with you that most mainstream porn has unattainable bodies for most people. But one of the most searched porn terms is actually bbw. A lot of people are really into fat bodies. So we think of it as this edgy thing, but it's not actually that edgy. When I think about what I would like fat people to do to help embrace their own bodies, I think. I think, for one, it really helps to find fat community, both in social media and as far as your media diet. Like, what are you watching? What are the pictures of people that you're looking at? And I also ideally find local fat community. There are, across the country now, sort of regular fat oriented pool parties happen in the summer. There are a lot of fat clothing swaps. There's a fat con, I think, in Seattle, and then there's going to be another one in Philadelphia in October, which I'm definitely going to. Finding fat people who aren't into. Into sexuality and, you know, happy with their bodies is important because I think if we have no role models, it's really hard to do. I think you'll also find that a lot of the sex positive communities are pretty fat friendly. Polyamorous community is pretty fat friendly, and the kink community is pretty fat friendly. I would say some parts of the tantric community are, and some are less so. So it's worth checking out, like, the spaces to see what. How friendly they are and how accessible they are. So there are ways to sort of get in touch with other happy, fat, sexual beings.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: Yeah. And just so people. People who are listening, who may be wondering what BBW stands for, it's big, beautiful woman. And my question to you, Tamara, is to what extent, though, do you think that fat bodies are being fetishized or objectified versus fully embraced as humans worthy of love? And it means porn surges.
[00:14:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I think both of these things happen. I think there's something that I should also mention, which is that fat men exist.
[00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah. We're not just talking about women here.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: Yeah, no, but I. Like I said BBW, and I did not mention BHM, which is big, handsome men.
And I think it is harder to find, you know, porn or really anything with examples of big men who are being seen as attractive. I think the bear community is really helpful for that, but obviously, it's mostly geared towards gay men. I feel like there's two ways people look at fat sexuality. Like, I feel like there are some people who are very into this idea of fatness as sort of dirty and a thing you're not really supposed to want. I think there is a lot of porn to that extent. I think that there are a lot of parties, like, if you go on the Internet and search for sex parties, there are a lot of BBW, bHM oriented sex parties that are very much like, you know, I will fuck you in a party with a bunch of strangers. But I think you find less people who are more traditional sized who are willing to really claim that love of fat people in public.
I think you will find some of them, and again, you will find them often in queer communities and king communities and places like that, less so than in a lot of mainstream culture.
[00:15:26] Speaker B: Can you talk a little bit, Tamara, about your personal experience embracing your body type? Because you mentioned that you've had periods where you've gone through weight loss and then gained the weight back. So I can't imagine that you have always embraced your body type. At least it didn't sound like that from what little you told me about your history. But I think it could be really helpful for people to hear and understand what your personal journey has looked like.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: I mean, I think I'm certainly not, like, a good example of how these things work because I've always been sort of oriented around relationships and sexuality, starting as a very young person. I started dating when I was ten, at which point, you know, holding hands was very exciting.
And, you know, I was always, like, reading romance novels all through, like, middle school and high school. And I got involved in the LGBTQ community. I've been out as bi since I was 16, and I was always very active as far as dating. And I think for me, I'll be real. I think some of that was about, like, I need people to tell me that they're into me. For me to feel like I am an attractive human, I am not going to pretend that that also isn't a part of my poly polyamorous identity. You know, I've been polyamorous since 2011, and being able to have multiple partners and multiple partners who are like, I really love you. The way that you are really helps me sort of work through some of that stuff. But I still have dark days. I still have days where I just feel like it would just be easier to be smaller. And I think for me, that's not so much about my sexuality as it is about, like, how people treat me in the world. I mean, I think that being a part of the cane community has really helped. Being in, you know, clothing optional spaces with people of all sizes has really helped. I feel like, you know, being around people who just are very accepting has really been helpful. I feel like, for most people, a lot of those spaces are hard to access. So that's why I feel like it's really important to find things. Like, you know, there's podcasts, maintenance fees, and the fat doctor and the Fat Joy podcast. Like, there's spaces where people are talking about these things, both about the medical stuff and about, like, the social experience of fatness. I feel like there's this stuff that gets tied in with the medical stuff of, like, us feeling like we can't be what the model of an appropriate body is, and this idea that, like, we're bad and unlovable because of it. And so it takes a lot of sort of, like, really learning what the science is and being able to stop blaming ourselves. And I feel like, you know, it's easier to have good sex when you don't think you're a bad person.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Exactly. And when you feel healthy, regardless of your body type, I mean, just for anyone listening, you know, the bodies can store fat in different ways. You can have subcutaneous fat, which doesn't have too many health downsides. It's the visceral fat, the fat that's growing on your organs, which skinny people can have. A lot of that can be really unhealthy. And so I think there are just a lot of myths and misconceptions about the relationship between fat and health. It's not always what you see on the outside and that having a direct negative correlation to health. There are plenty of fat people who end up having perfect blood work, healthy hearts, no to low risk of diabetes, and then there are plenty of skinny people who can have all kinds of health problems. So you just never know. You should. We should never judge a book by its cover.
[00:18:48] Speaker A: But I also think, like, that whole idea of, like, it's okay to be fat because some fat people are healthy gets really caught up in this idea of healthism, of, like, you're better if you're healthy. And I am that person who, like, I definitely have metabolic stuff. I had polycystic ovary syndrome that was diagnosed when I was 18, which causes insulin resistance, which causes weight gain, and I am diabetic now. You know, it took 20 years between people telling me, you are definitely going to be diabetic and me actually becoming diabetic. But, you know, that is the thing that happened. And I don't think that that makes me somehow worse than somebody with that in a way that's healthier. Like, I have done everything that I was supposed to do to be healthy, and that hasn't made me healthy. So I'm just doing the best I can out here, you know?
[00:19:40] Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, to my point, again, there are plenty of skinny people who have a lot of health problems. So you just never know. And yes, to your point, we need to move away from this idea that sex is only reserved for healthy people or for able bodied people. I love Peggy Kleinplatz's research on optimal sex. She talked to a lot of older individuals, but people who had chronic health conditions. I mean, I've done a little bit of research in this area, too, and talked to people who have things like chronic pancreatitis, people who had all kinds of chronic health and pain conditions, who were still finding ways to have really great sex. And so at the end of the day, I think every human is entitled to experience sexual pleasure regardless of their body type, regardless of their health status, regardless of a lot of things. We just need to move away from this very narrow perception we have about who is entitled to sex.
[00:20:36] Speaker A: Absolutely everybody should be entitled to great sex, and we have to shift our definition of what great sex is. And I think when you read Peggy Kleinhotz's work, she talks about, like, great sex being a spiritual experience and being about pleasure, and it is not about sexual function. It is not about whether you can get an erection. And I think a lot of sex therapy still ends up revolving around, can we get penis hard enough to penetrate a vagina that is wet enough? And frankly, who the fuck cares? Like, for me, it's all about, can you shift your focus from what your body looks like, from what is going on around you and really feel touch and feel energy and feel your partner's breath and really just sink into pleasure? Which is something that we're not taught to do unless you are, like, actively making a choice to take a class on how to do that. We don't teach people those skills.
[00:21:36] Speaker B: Are you struggling with emotional or physical intimacy? I have good news. I am now offering an unbeatable deal for my private six week online workshop. When you purchase my new book, Anatomy of Desire, you get the workshop for free. That's right. It's on the house. With qualified book purchases. Certain rules do apply, but check out emilyjamia.com workshop for all the details. Exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, great sex far transcends the appearance of your body or your body's function.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Right. Well, and also, it transcends intercourse.
[00:22:11] Speaker B: Like, yeah, yeah. Like, I feel like, let's break it down.
[00:22:14] Speaker A: You can have sex from across the room with good enough eye contact. Totally.
You can have sex, you know, just touching hands and feet. Like, there are all kinds of things that can be sex.
[00:22:24] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:25] Speaker A: If you let them.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: Yes.
Yeah. I just did another episode with someone on all about broadening our definition of sex because it is so much more than intercourse. And we have got to change the way we think about what sex is if we're going to have better sex. So you talk a little bit about how fat people can find partners who love and accept them for who they are. What is your advice to people out there who are just struggling because of their own insecurities or who have had negative relationship, who have faced negative comments like, what hope can you give people on how to find a partner who accepts them?
[00:23:03] Speaker A: Like, I don't think it's easy. I mean, I think dating apps are terrible places, and yet I've found the vast majority of my partners there. Okcupid specifically seems to work better for me than most of the other ones. There are, like, fat specific dating apps. I haven't been on one in a long time because I found that the fat specific dating apps felt more fetishy than. But I'm really clear in all of my profiles on dating apps that I'm a fat person, that I look at the world from a fat acceptance perspective. And, like, if they don't want. If they don't want to deal with that, they don't. They don't have to deal with me. And I think that, you know, meeting people in person is also helpful. So if you're doing things in the world that you enjoy, you're likely to find people there that will be interested in you because you will have shared interests. Yeah, I'm not going to pretend it's not difficult. It is really difficult. You know, I do have somebody in my practice who does dating coaching, specifically. Some of her clients are people who are fat and trying to figure out how to date as a fat person in the world. And we've also done classes on that as well because it is complicated. It takes time to learn how to suss out who is somebody who's just fetishizing you and who is somebody who's, like, a really good partner potential. And also, like, how is fetishization working? Like, I have a partner who is definitely all about fatness and is like, you know, we'll put that forward. Like, I want to interact with fat people, but that doesn't mean that he's, like, not seeing them as whole people.
[00:24:37] Speaker B: Oh, I'm glad you make that distinction. But I also want to know what red flags people may need to look out for when it comes to being fetishized by someone for people who maybe aren't into that, don't want to feel sexually objectified in that way. What are some red flags people maybe need to be aware of, especially when they're out there in the dating world?
[00:24:57] Speaker A: I mean, I think somebody who doesn't want to meet you in public. Yeah. Somebody who's not willing to claim their relationship in any way is a bad sign, I think, for me. And maybe this is also because I'm a kinky person. Like, I want to negotiate what kinds of scenes we're going to do. Like, if we're going to engage in BDsm, like, for me, I'm going to be like, I have lines about humiliation. I'm not into it.
And I think if somebody feels like humiliation is something that they need and you're not into that, don't do it. I think there's another piece that we should at least touch on, which is that a lot of people work through their traumatic experiences, through the kink realm. So you will find people who are fat who will want to be called names around. That is part of their working through the trauma. And that's okay as long as they're doing that in a way where they feel good about it afterwards, where they feel some sort of catharsis around it, where they get the aftercare they need, where it works for them. I think that you have to be really careful generally, particularly if you date men that, like, they're going to treat you like you're not a person. And so there's a lot of, like, are they asking you about what you're interested in outside of sex?
[00:26:10] Speaker B: Right.
[00:26:10] Speaker A: Are they asking you about your life? Do they seem to actually care?
And I also. I'm always having one of my favorite questions to, like, stump new people I meet on the Internet is, like, what's your favorite model of consent?
Like, are you a fries person?
Are you no person?
Are you a. Yes means yes person? Like, your favorite model of consent? If you don't know what a model of consent is, you know, take a class, come back.
[00:26:41] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. We can put a link for people who maybe need to educate themselves on that. You know, I'm glad you brought that up, though, about the BDsm world being an opportunity for people to work through their trauma and maybe in particular for fat people to work through shame that they may experience about their body. There was just a study that came out about that that I haven't had a chance to read through yet, but it's, like, been minimized on my desktop for, like, a week. So I will soon. But just for people listening, can you talk a little bit about the psychological benefits of working through trauma, and particularly fat trauma through the bdsm world.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: The body stores trauma physically. Like, you will find that once you've had a traumatic experience, it's held somewhere. And some of us can figure out where that is and some of us can't. Some of us need to massage therapists for that. But I think it can help to have someone sort of play with the mind games around it. Sort of like talk to you about your fatness. For me, I think it's interesting, and I think this is true with a lot of sexual trauma. Like, some people want to sort of repeat things, so they want to have the experience of, like, if they've been called names around being fat, that they want to repeat that. And some people want the opposite.
But it's part of the same process of sort of like, rewiring the way the brain is experiencing that stimulus to make it less dangerous and to give you some control. Like, when you set up a scene for somebody to call you names around your fatness, you made that happen. You can tell them to stop at any time. And ultimately you control that experience, provided the person respects your boundaries, which you hope they do.
[00:28:27] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:28:28] Speaker A: And I also think people can go the opposite way. So some people, like me, for instance, I want to be with somebody who will tell me I'm beautiful, will pay specific attention to my belly and rub it and give it love.
Somebody who can sort of helped me rewire from a different perspective. And it's okay to go either way, but I think either way, you are allowing yourself to work through some of that trauma. I mean, people will do, like, a lot of work around a lot of hard traumas. People will replay sexual trauma. People will replay racial trauma. People will do some dark stuff. But I do think that kink has the power to really transform. And I think sometimes we need something physical as opposed to just something. I mean, I think we know that about trauma. Like, if you just talk about your trauma, you don't get better. You need Emdr. Yes.
[00:29:20] Speaker B: You need some of the somatic stuff. Yeah, yeah, totally. And it's I think really what it comes down to is reenacting the trauma in whatever way you feel you need. Whether it's asking someone to sort of repeat the trauma in a controlled setting versus the opposite, maybe feeling really cherished and held and seen and the sense of safety created wherever you are on the spectrum is the fact of doing that in a controlled setting that helps people regain their sense of autonomy and moves out those somatic memories of the trauma that made them feel so out of control up until that point. Yeah.
[00:29:55] Speaker A: Taking control back, even when you're on the submissive side of the slash.
[00:29:59] Speaker B: Right, right. Well, it's always the submissives who are really in control.
[00:30:03] Speaker A: I mean, you hope. Yeah.
[00:30:05] Speaker B: Last question. What do you think smaller people need to know and understand about fat people and fat sexuality specifically?
[00:30:13] Speaker A: I feel like there's a thing Aubrey Gordon says in her movie and also in her books, where she talks about the idea of when you see a fat person thinking, not that this person has not tried to not be fat, but that maybe they've tried incredibly hard, and maybe this is actually what happens when you try incredibly hard. And I think that thinner people need to know that we don't fit the stereotypes that people have about us and that we, you know, we're regular people. And I think that when it comes to sexuality, people need to understand that we can be very sexual and there's a lot more of us to give, there's a lot more of us to explore, and we can have really amazing sexual experiences, and they're missing out if they don't ever, ever experience that.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: I love that, and I think that is such a beautiful place to land. Tamara, thank you so much for joining me. Truly a pleasure.
[00:31:11] Speaker A: Thank you so much. You take care.
[00:31:13] Speaker C: Thanks again for listening to love and libido with me, your host, doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and drop me a five star review. Positive ratings help keep the show going. Going as much as we can learn from experts, nothing makes us feel more connected than hearing from each other. If you have a question about your love life, visit loveandlabiedo.com and I'll answer it on an upcoming episode. And don't forget to get your copy of my new book, anatomy of desire, five secrets to create connection and cultivate passion, which is currently available for pre order. Visit emilyjamia.com to try my online workshops and read my latest blogs. Subscribers to my podcast can use code half off for all my online learning material. Finally, you can follow me across all the social media channels for daily sex and relationship tips at Dr. Emily Jamia. That's drmily Jamia. Thank you so much for tuning in.
