[00:00:00] Speaker A: You kind of have to come to a level of self acceptance if you're going to engage in these non normative sexual acts and play. And I think that all vanilla folks could use a lot of self acceptance. I think we all could. Because if you are criticizing yourself or your body when you're having sex or your desires or your fantasies, it's really hard to be in the moment, and it's hard to access pleasure.
[00:00:22] Speaker B: What exactly can vanilla people learn from kinky people? It turns out they can learn a lot. Kinky people have figured out how to negotiate, explore, and take care of each other in really wonderful ways. Skills that apply not just to them, but to all kinds of people. Today, we're going to start by busting some myths and misconceptions about kink and kinky people. And then my wonderful guest is going to outline five clear lessons that vanilla people can take home. But first, let's get to know our guest. Clara Perlman is a queer jewish sex therapist and educator living and working in the Bay Area. Her work with clients, workshops, podcasts, and social media focuses on making sex education more accessible and normalizing sexual pleasure and play in people's lives. Like many therapists, she channeled her greatest source of pleasure and heartbreak into her area of focus, leading her to specialize in therapy for sex and intimacy with couples, individuals, and follicules. You can find her ex clarified on all platforms
[email protected] let's get started. Hello, Claire, and welcome to the show.
[00:01:35] Speaker A: Hi. Thanks for having me.
[00:01:37] Speaker B: I am so happy you're here. I was so excited when I read the email that you sent when I was looking for guests for the show, because I was like, yes, definitely. I want to book her. There is so much to talk about. The way I kind of see it as it relates to today's topic is you're kind of like a bridge between kinky people and vanilla people and give a little.
[00:01:56] Speaker A: Oh, God, I love that.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And so I think there's so much to discuss there. Before we do, though, I would love to hear a little bit more about you and how you got into the field and how you made this your specialty.
[00:02:10] Speaker A: Yeah. So first of all, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. Secondly, I got my master's in social work back in 2018, and I was actually working clinically with kids, and I loved that I was working in schools, but I always kind of, in the back of my head, knew that I wanted to transition into sex therapy at some point, and so near the end of my kind of school, working in schools career, I got my first beginning of the certification to be a sex therapist. And then it was just off to the races and I opened my private practice. And I've been working as a full time sex therapist for the past several years. And it's been so exciting when I think about what really inspired me to be a sex therapist, I think back to growing up in my house with my mom and my mom. Mom has always just been super sex positive. And every story I heard from her was about a different boyfriend growing up. And, yeah. So I always internalized that it was okay to be a slut.
[00:03:22] Speaker B: Thanks, mom.
[00:03:23] Speaker A: Yeah, thanks, mom. Hi, mom. I took that and ran with it. And it's been such a blessing to one be able to have that framework to approach both my clinical and personal life with and be able to also talk to my mom about my work and about my personal life with really not a lot of abandon and be able to really share that with her. And she's my biggest fan. So shout out to mom.
[00:03:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's so cool. It's such an interesting moment, I think, for kids or adolescents or young adults, whenever it happens to realize that your mother is not just a mother, but a woman with her own desires, and for you to have that experience at such a young age, I think you were incredibly lucky because not a lot of people have that. And so for her to share those stories with you and make it positive and kind of fun, like, that's just so cool.
[00:04:20] Speaker A: I feel really, really fortunate. And even when, as I was navigating my own sexual journey, I remember calling her in college and telling her things that I had done that maybe I wasn't so excited about or that things that I like wasn't sure how I felt about. And there was just never any judgment there. And that was so special. And that's something that, you know, I know that most people don't have. And that's kind of what I try and bring into my practice is this really non judgmental approach to working with people in their sex lives because I know how impactful it was for me.
[00:04:55] Speaker B: Exactly. And I think, you know, when we as therapists, kind of model having, like, a nonchalant attitude about things related to sex, like, it gives couples anhe individuals the permission to have the same kind of, like, you know what? At the end of the day, sex is natural. It is no big deal. Well, it is, but it is. It doesn't have to be like, this taboo laden thing.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Right.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: It'll be a lot of fun. And I think the more positively we think about it, the better off we all are.
[00:05:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And the more we're able to talk about it, which I think is huge.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: Right. Right now, you identify not just as a sex therapist, but as a queer, kink positive sex therapist. So can you talk a little bit about that part of your identity and interest within the field of sex therapy?
[00:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah. So I think that there's a lot of assumptions that come up with being a sex therapist, that you're some kind of, like, wild person, and sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not. For me. I am queer, I'm bisexual, and I find that that's a really important part of my work. I also am Kink affirming, Polly E. M. Affirming and working in the Bay Area as someone who has both personal and professional experience in those identities, I think that it's really, really important to bring that to my clients because so many people are trying to navigate what all of those things mean to them and how all of those identities intersect for them. So I try and talk about non monogamy, kink, being queer, all of these different things as much as possible. Not because I'm trying to get people to, you know, try them out or come over to my side or whatever, but because I think that we can all learn something from approaching sex with a new kind of perspective. I find that people who are queer, kinky poly, all have had to approach sex with a kind of non normative perspective and idea, because the way that they. We're given sex, the way that society gives us sex, is not within those identities generally. And so we've all kind of had to forge our own path. But that makes people so much more, in my experience, open to trying new things and failing or having challenging moments and being able to kind of roll with that without so much pressure and judgment and stigmatization around themselves, their partners, and their own desires. And so that's why I'm really passionate about talking about this stuff. You can tell I'm really excited about it.
[00:07:37] Speaker B: I know, and I know this is just the audio, but you're talking a lot with your hands, which tells me the passion is there. So for people just to have that visual, and the way I see it, I think for anyone to be able to really determine what their sexual values are, you have to educate yourself about sexuality before you can make the value assertion that, for example, monogamy is for you. You have to educate yourself about non monogamy, Polly. And, like, what does the research say? Like, I think a lot of times we internalize what society, culture, family, peers, like, all of that, the messages that we get. But I think as it relates to sexuality, a lot of people don't really educate themselves. And so I think it's amazing that when couples come in to see you, that you're giving them information about all of these different components of sexuality so that they can then make an educated and informed decision about their own values and ultimately what their preferences are.
[00:08:35] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I fully agree. I think that some of what I find, too, is that people come to me and say, okay, well, we want to educate ourselves or we want to figure out how to approach these things, but they don't even know where to start. So I think having those conversations with me, I do a lot of directive work in my practice, and so I'll make a lot of, like, check this article out. Check this book out. Like, let's talk about this thing. Have you ever tried this toy or whatever? And I find that that can be really empowering for people.
[00:09:05] Speaker B: Yeah, totally. Look, information is power. The more we know, more empowered we are. So before we dive in specifically into what vanilla folks can learn from kinky folks, let's talk about differentiate this concept of kinky versus vanilla, because I think there's probably a lot of myths and misconceptions about what that means and what kind of people are kinky. So can you start by maybe giving your definition of kink and maybe educating listeners a little bit on. On kinky people?
[00:09:39] Speaker A: Yeah, this is such a good question. I was actually having this discussion with someone the other day about what differentiates someone as kinky. What I have come up with is that kink really means just a non traditional approach to having sex. And I think that can really mean whatever you want it to mean. And when I was having this discussion with someone, we were actually debating whether pegging was kinky or not because it's become so normative or, like, at least colloquially, you know, to talk about shout out to broad City and Dan Savage, coining the term. But I argued that I still think pegging is kinky because it's not kind of on the general menu for people to choose from and that it still has to warrant some kind of extra discussion and extra exploration. And so I really think that kink encompasses everything that is a non traditional approach, desire, fantasy of sex, and that you can be as kinky or non kinky as you want to be. And sometimes kink lives in our fantasies, and we don't want to make it into a reality. But that doesn't mean you're not kinky. You still get to claim kinky if that feels right, as part of your identity, as part of your sexual practice. So that's kind of what I think of as kinky versus vanilla.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think, you know, for people listening, I think there's this idea that kink is, like, this new thing, or, like, we're just now kind of pushing people to explore sexual kink. And that cannot be further from the truth. I mean, you look at any greek vase, and you will see a lot of kinky sex depicted on the vase. Or, you know, I'm thinking, I think it was, like, Catherine the great, like, loved having her feet tickled and, like, had, like, a total fetish. Like, you know, kink has shown up historically for thousands of years. It's nothing new. I think it's really only in more kind of relatively modern times that sex has been whittled down to what you're describing to be quote unquote traditional, which is this very heteronormative, penile vaginal penetration. And, like, we kiss, we undress, maybe we touch each other a little bit, we have intercourse, and then it's over with the male orgasm. And, like, anything beyond that might be kinky. And we, I think, first and foremost, have to start by really broadening our definition of sex and also understanding that humans are curious and playful, and we like novelty. And we've known that for thousands of years. This is nothing new. You know, it's maybe starting to come back into fashion again. We're starting to accept it again and be curious about it again. So I think that's an important point to make. Are you struggling with emotional or physical intimacy? I have good news. I am now offering an unbeatable deal for my private six week online workshop. When you purchase my new book, Anatomy of Desire, you get the workshop for free. That's right. It's on the house. With qualified book purchases. Certain rules do apply, but check out emilyjamia.com workchallenge for all the details.
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Totally, totally agree. I also think that living in the Bay area, it's just, like, steeped in weird culture, you know, and, like, pink and the Folsom street fair and door alley. Like, all of these things have existed for a long time. And now kind of with the social media being more accessible and I think more of us as sex educators and sex therapists, being on social media, like, I know you and I are. It is hopefully getting the message out further to people that they can explore this stuff and it doesn't have to be so taboo.
[00:13:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And coming back to what differentiates kinky from vanilla? I love what you said, and I just want to echo it. I think it's a. I hadn't really thought about that, but it's anything that maybe warrants an extra conversation, a, you know, an ask for consent that might push something into that domain.
I think that's a good place to start for people.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%.
[00:13:59] Speaker B: Because for some people, like, trying a sex toy could be considered for them.
[00:14:03] Speaker A: Oh, yes.
[00:14:04] Speaker B: You know, I mean, it really runs the gamut.
[00:14:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I kind of came up with that on the spot about having warranting an extra conversation.
[00:14:11] Speaker B: It's great.
[00:14:12] Speaker A: I thank you. I think that that's kind of the line a lot of the time, and because I am thinking about many of my clients who, like, have never tried a sex toy, have never introduced any kind of sensation play or any kind of power dynamic. And I, like, those are all things that weren't extra conversations and that totally even, like, lube sometimes. Yeah. Consider kinky for people.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So what would you say are some misconceptions about kinky people or about kink in general? Some myths and misconceptions.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: Bust them. I think there are a lot of misconceptions around Kink and kinky people. I think one of the first things that comes to mind is that kink is all about, like, whips and chains and.
Yeah, Rhianna. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Like everyone's in leather and thigh high boots. But I think kink can encompass so many things. Kink can encompass simply, as I said, sharing fantasies, it can encompass adding in extra people, it can encompass, as you said, like foot play, feet, fetishes. There are so many different things that can encompass role playing. It doesn't have to be what we think of as impact play. That's, you know, for everyone listening, that's what we call it, as in the King community. But, like, that's not the only thing. That's just the beginning if you want it to be. You don't even have to engage in that. I think that's the only thing.
[00:15:45] Speaker B: Can you define impact play for people who might not know what that is? Yeah.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: So impact play is like using kind of whips and chains type of thing, like getting hit, maybe slapped.
Obviously, this is all within consent and boundaries, and impact play can include just using your hands to get slapped or hit or pushed, maybe. And that's all. I feel like that is the thing that people think about immediately when they think about kingdom. But I think if there's one myth that I could bust, it's that you don't even have to engage in that to thinking.
[00:16:20] Speaker B: No, you do not. You absolutely do not. I think, to your point, trying different role play scenarios, acting things out, I think that gives us access to explore parts of our personality that we don't normally get in touch with. Like, I just had another interview with someone not too long ago about sexual novelty and how to keep things interesting and long term relationships. And, you know, I come from the belief that we have all different sides to ourselves and we really only tap into a small fraction of those parts on a regular basis. But I think when you give yourself permission to lean into kink, you can then tap into different sides that you may not otherwise explore.
[00:17:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I fully agree. I think that kink can be a full exploration and can open up so many other doors in sexuality that you didn't even know existed before.
[00:17:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Coming back to your comment a minute ago about impact play and kind of being hit and spanked and that sort of thing, I think it could be helpful to talk a little bit about the relationship between pleasure and pain, because I think a lot of people hear that and they're like, God, I would never want to do that. Like, that hurts. Why? How could anyone be into that? But when you break it down, pleasure and pain kind of go hand in hand in other areas in life, too. Like, I. What I would remind people is, like, think about when you're going for a run and your chest kind of starts to burn, but that, like, gives you a boost of adrenaline and excitement and encourages you to keep going. Like, we have kind of a complex relationship with pleasure and pain as humans. So can you talk about that a little bit from a kink perspective?
[00:18:02] Speaker A: Yeah, I think about it as type two fun. Are you familiar with that?
[00:18:07] Speaker B: I don't think so, no.
[00:18:08] Speaker A: Okay. So I don't even know where I learned it. But type two, there's two kinds of fun, apparently. Type one fun is very easy, digestible. It's like eating a piece of cake. Like, there's no real effort required, and it's an immediate payoff. And type two fun, which people love in the Bay area, and I also love, is, like, hiking, camping, backpacking, you know, big rock climbing trips.
I love to lift weights. And, like, that's kind of like type two fun. It's stuff that's difficult and challenging, and maybe not in the moment is an immediate payoff, but when you're finished with it or halfway through it, you're like, oh, yeah, this is great. Like, I really do love this. Or you get a real dopamine rush at the end.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Rush. Uh huh.
[00:18:57] Speaker A: Yeah. And so I think about that. I also think about, like, getting tattooed. Like, I have a lot of tattoos, and, like, people love tattoos, but they're painful, but they're also pleasurable, and they give you pleasure after you have them. Or, like, sometimes you find a little pleasure in the pain. And so maybe some people listening are like, I can never get a tattoo. That's also fine. But I think that going for a run, getting a tattoo, type two fun, that's the kind of pain and pleasure mix that I think about. I mean, I think you could even say raising kids is challenging, painful, and pleasurable.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's a great analogy. Mostly painful, but, yeah, there's a little bit of pleasure.
No, it's great. You know, it's interesting. I've never heard it broken down into type one versus type two fun. But, you know, it brings me back to. So a lot of the research and work I do is around the relationship between flow state and sexual satisfaction. And, you know, things that put people into a flow state usually require some effort. Like, you don't get into the state of flow right away. We break flow state down into essentially four stages. And there's kind of the struggle phase where you're getting everything right. Maybe you're getting mentally ready, or you're an artist who's mixing their oils and, you know, a musician who's tuning their instruments, or you're packing your bag to go on a rock climb. Like the stretching before you hop on your surfboard, like all of those things, there's a little bit of struggle. You're not relaxed. You're not really experiencing pleasure, but the preparation is required. And then eventually, you find that you're starting to relax, and the worries of the day are starting to slip away. And then eventually, this comes later on in the process, you experience flow, which is like the ultimate neurochemical cocktail of pleasure. And when I started looking into this research, I found that there was nothing in the literature that looked at flow state and sexual satisfaction among a broader population. All that was out there was among folks who practiced bds and m.
And it makes sense because there's the preparation, there's the conversations, there's the planning, and then there's the experience. And, you know, we know that. Yeah. From eating a piece of chocolate cake. Yeah, you get a surge of dopamine, but you get so much more when you're engaged in flow. And it's even more of a rush. Now, how far you go really depends on the couple and your limitations and values and all of that. But I think that putting effort into cultivating exciting sex is worth it.
[00:21:41] Speaker A: Yeah. That I think is generalizable. Like that is you can apply that to vanilla or kinky sex.
[00:21:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So thinking about the kinky folks who you treat, and maybe the more vanilla folks that you treat, what would you say that vanilla people can learn from kinky people to help have. Have better sex?
[00:22:03] Speaker A: Yeah. This is one of my favorite things to talk about and think about. I actually have five kink dynamics that I think can be used across all sexual dynamics, vanilla or not. And those include one negotiation. And we'll go into detail with all of these.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: I love list, by the way. This is great. Okay. Number one, negotiation.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Number one, negotiation. Number two, checking in throughout. Number three, aftercare. Number four, self acceptance. And number five, playfulness.
And I think that all five of those are integral to creating a kink dynamic and engaging in kinky sex and that all five of those can create incredibly satisfying sex for vanilla folks as well.
[00:22:55] Speaker B: I love it. And yes, as you were going through each one, I'm like, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. So can you break it down? Let's talk about each one at a time.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: Yes. Okay. So number one is negotiation. So that means having a thorough discussion before getting into bed. I like to say I want everyone to have conversations about sex with their clothes on outside of the bedroom so that you don't have to be doubly naked, because there's just no need for that.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: So I love that term, doubly naked.
[00:23:26] Speaker A: Yeah, because then you're naked and you're vulnerable and you're having this talk about sex. No, let's cut all that shit out. And we'll have these negotiations clothed outside of the bedroom. And you're gonna talk about all of your desires, all of your boundaries, all of your hard no's and limitations, all the things that you're excited about. And those don't have to be kinky things that can just be. I'm really excited for us to experience our body so close together. I'm really excited for you to eat me out, you know, whatever it is. And I think that having that negotiation, having that discussion about sex can make sex so much sweeter. So do you want to add anything to that.
[00:24:08] Speaker B: No, I think, I mean, you pretty much covered it. It's having the conversations like I think it was. I interviewed, I want to say it was Logan Lovekoff on one of my podcasts, and she was like, there's no bad lovers, but just bad communicators. I think it was her who said that. But I love that you gotta start by talking about this stuff so that everyone is on the same page, so that you're working together as a team to cultivate great sex rather than it falling on one person's hands or the other.
[00:24:34] Speaker A: Yes, great sex is a collaboration. That's always what I tell my couples. Number two is checking in throughout, and I think that that's something that's essential in kink, because we're walking up to boundaries, we're challenging ourselves, and there can be harm done if we're not checking in throughout. And so I think that kink really encourages us to continue to check in and see how people are feeling and see if they want to continue, if they need to slow down things like that. And I think that vanilla sex has not been conceptualized as something that needs to be checked in throughout, but I think that we're doing a disservice to ourselves by not checking in because there can still be harm done if you don't check in. And I think that that's something all vanilla folks could use.
[00:25:20] Speaker B: So the one thing I would add, and this is particularly poignant, I think, for heterosexual men who may be less inclined to do this, is to pay attention to your partner's nonverbal cues. Because I think a lot of people feel uncomfortable or inhibited speaking up about what they like or dislike, what feels good, not good. But if you notice that there's kind of a grimace on their face or their muscles are starting to tense, it behooves you to check in with them to make sure that that's not representative of something that is making them uncomfortable or as painful in a way that they don't want. Remember, sex should never hurt unless you want it to. Verbal communication is obviously paramount and super important, but we also have to pay attention to nonverbal cues as well.
[00:26:07] Speaker A: Fully, fully agree. And then number three is aftercare. Aftercare is really important because that's how you can reconnect after sex and make sure that everyone is on the same page, that everyone's feeling good, and see if you need any more compassion or care after.
[00:26:25] Speaker B: Yeah, and I think that's so important because a lot of people have this idea that sex ends with the orgasm. And that is not the case. The pillow talk, the cuddling, whether we're talking about vanilla folks or the aftercare that's involved for kinky folks, that is part of the sexual experience as well. And one area that should not be neglected because it really sets the tone for how you're going to feel going into the next encounter.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: Yes. As Esther Perel likes to say, sex begins at the end of the last orgasm.
[00:26:53] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So true.
[00:26:54] Speaker A: Which I love.
[00:26:55] Speaker B: So true. Yeah.
[00:26:56] Speaker A: And then number four is self acceptance, which I think is huge when engaging in kink because you kind of have to come to a level of self acceptance if you're going to engage in these non normative sexual acts and play. And I think that all vanilla folks could use a lot of self acceptance. I think we all could. Because if you are criticizing yourself or your body when you're having sex or your desires or your fantasies, it's really hard to be in the moment and it's hard to access pleasure.
[00:27:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's part of the reason why we see a little bit higher incidence of kink in the LGBTQ community, because these people have already had to cross a bridge towards self acceptance because their sexual identity or gender identity doesn't really fit in with the norm. So they've already done that. And then, like, exploring Kink isn't as big of a deal in the grand scheme of things, you know, versus heterosexual people haven't had to deal with that. And so for them, exploring kink can feel like they're really pushing themselves outside their comfort zone, when, again, I want people to remember, this is nothing new.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: Yes. I think that's also why we see a really big crossover in the poly kink community, because you're already pushing your own boundaries, doing non normative things, and so it's not that big of a leap.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Exactly. Exactly. And then rounding it out at number five with playfulness.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: I think that you touched on this, but I. Sex can be a playful space, and I think that that is one of the most. One of the things that people struggle with the most because it becomes so pressurized, so anxiety filled. But with kink, it's really approaching it with playfulness. And that I think all vanilla folks could use a little bit more of is a lot of playfulness in sex.
[00:28:46] Speaker B: I wholeheartedly agree. I think that that playful element is. Is a piece of sexuality that just isn't tapped into enough. And it's what, I think it's a huge component of what makes sex fun. Obviously, like, those words fun and play kind of go together. Think of sex toys. Like we play with toys. Like we have to tap into our playful sides. And again, this is something that came up on another episode I recently recorded. I think especially for people in longer term relationships who have kids. Like, all that playful energy gets zapped during the child rearing years because there was probably like playful and flirtatious energy early on. And then you have kids and it's like all redirected into that kid type playful energy. But it's still in there. It's not a matter of being someone you're not. What I always say, it's a matter of tapping into qualities that you already have within. I love that.
Yeah, exactly. It's in there. You just gotta tap into it. It.
[00:29:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I fully agree. I like to tell clients to make time for ice cream because they're just not making enough time for fun and playfulness.
[00:29:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, totally agree. Well, this was such a great conversation. Claire, thank you so much for joining me today. Where can people learn more about you and and find you if they ever want to work with you?
[00:30:10] Speaker A: Thank you so much for having me. This was a real pleasure. And treat. Um, they can find me at spelled normally with a d at the end on all social media platforms. And if they want to work with me, they can find
[email protected]. and I am only licensed in California, so I can see you if you live in California over Zoom or in person in the Bay Area.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Awesome. And can we just talk about that? Handle sex, clarify. That's so good.
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Thank you so much.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, thank you. I will be sure to link all of that in the show notes. Claire, thanks again and I hope to talk again soon. Soon.
[00:30:47] Speaker C: Thanks again for listening to love and libido with me, your host, Doctor Emily Jamia. If you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and drop me a five star review. Positive ratings help keep the show going as much as we can learn from experts, nothing makes us feel more connected than hearing from each other. If you have a question about your love life, visit loveandlabiedo.com and I'll answer it on an upcoming episode. And don't forget to to get your copy of my new book, Anatomy of five Secrets to create connection and cultivate passion, which is currently available for preorder, visit emilyjamia.com to try my online workshops and read my latest blogs. Subscribers to my podcast can use code half off for all my online learning material. Finally, you can follow me across all the social media channels for daily sex and relationship tips. Dremelagamea that's dremilyJamia. Thank you so much for tuning in.
